Tonearm advice under 8k with removable headshell

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Oelewapper, Mar 26, 2023.

  1. FalseMetal666

    FalseMetal666 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Congrats man, this is super cool to see.
     
    tryitfirst likes this.
  2. Oscillation

    Oscillation Maybe it was the doses?

    Can I ask what's driving you towards wanting a new tone arm in the first place?
     
  3. Ontheone

    Ontheone Poorly Understood Member

    Location:
    Indianapolis
    Yes, this wins out over the 4Point in terms of time to swap an arm - but how about sound quality against the 4Point?
     
  4. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Totally impractical. None of my turntables will even mount one. Let alone the 3 I'd need to cover most microgroove. Nice though like all things OMA.
     
  5. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    I like low compliance cartridges on arms which are ideally suited for them. Not suited for my needs.
     
  6. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    Oh, my comment was actually meant for the OP.
     
    McLover likes this.
  7. tryitfirst

    tryitfirst supatrac.com

    Location:
    UK
    That's not an OMA deck, it's a Tentogra deck which I've never heard, and swapping Blackbirds is quite practical. You just put a stylus guard on, remove it, and store it in a drawer. The good news is you probably don't even have to adjust the counterweight - it stays with the arm, set. With removable headshells you have to re-zero the arm balance and reset downforce every time AFAIK.
     
  8. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Storm Watcher

    Location:
    near Tampa, FL
    I was on Munich show, actually was trying to find you in "startup" section, but something else captured my attention, so I forgot )). Sorry, the place was crazy. There were some interesting tangential tonearms on this show (made in Poland) a little pricey, however.
    At the beginning I was tried to check which tonearm brand was the most popular, but then forgot.. May be Acoustic Signature.. I was surprised, however, how many TechDAS machines were in "show systems". Probably a waste, as place was so darn loud and full of background noise.
    Sorry for off.
    On most arms the only thing you need to do when changing carts on a headshells is to adjust VTF and (sometimes) VTA. VTA you can record for each cartridge (and for many of the same brand it is the same anyway).
    Changing arm is cool, but often a little pricey option. But yes, your azymuth, VTF, etc -are all set.
     
  9. KeithL

    KeithL Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    There's usually much slop in the SME type headshell connector. I always set azimuth when I change headshells.
     
  10. FuzzyNightmares

    FuzzyNightmares Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon
    Regretting not getting a blackbird about this time last year when it would have been a little less coin, but started a long process of flirting with a fidelity research fr64s, which just haven’t found the right one on the used market… Now with second baby due soon, second turntable is a bit on the back burner.
     
    Cyclone Ranger likes this.
  11. heman__

    heman__ Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    Not sure if it has been called out yet or not.. but there is a version of the SME IV that has a removable headshell. Of course, you’d need to replace all your current headshell with the SME version that fits the arm as I don’t think it is universal (but it might be?). I *think* there might also be a SME V with a removable headshell too, but not certain.

    I don’t doubt this would be the best modern arm that suits a wide variety of cartridge compliances available with a removeable headshell. It’s a killer arm to begin with and very well reviewed. Also meant to be a good match with the technics: I actually had one recommended to me by a dealer as an arm upgrade on my 1200

    There is one available here where you can at least see some pics: SME IV Detachable Headshell Tonearm, Made in United Kingdom | eBay


    PS. How could I forget the EMT 909: EMT 909-HI
     
  12. tryitfirst

    tryitfirst supatrac.com

    Location:
    UK
    Good point - when swapping Blackbirds you will often need to adjust VTA as cartridges have different depths. It's worth checking lean (azimuth) too. With a light-bulb bayonet headshell you also need to check VTA and lean, so the Blackbird is at least on a par. At any rate it is quite quick and easy, and 3 arms are still well within the price mooted. The SME arms are beautiful but for me it's all about the sound.
     
    missan likes this.
  13. Gramofonik

    Gramofonik Forum Resident

    Location:
    Poland
    SME III or SME IIIS
    There is no replaceable headshell, but the arm tube is replaceable :)
    The titanium arm tube, additionally damped, together with the headshell, is incredibly light, unbelievably light.
    It's a beautiful tonearm, with a very low effective mass, only 4.5g supporting cartridges, from 0g (!) to 13g
    Horizontal motion bearings have incredibly low initial resistance.
    Fully customizable in every way
    It's not true that it was designed only for high compliance cartridges. It handles both low and high compliance cartridges equally well.
    It is not expensive, sometimes you can buy it on ebay, still as new, for around 1000-1200 EUR
    Installation to modern Technics SL 1200 G/GR turntables is extremely easy.
    Low effective mass arms are not popular today, the world has moved to heavier arms, which does not mean that low effective mass arms are bad, they are not bad.
    I will not change to any other ;)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2023
  14. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor. Thread Starter

    Just found out that the Ortofon TA-110 has an effective tonearm mass of only 3.5 grams (without HS), according to Ortofon:
    TA-110 9" tonearm
    That doesn't seem right to me... could that really be this low?
     
    missan likes this.
  15. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Storm Watcher

    Location:
    near Tampa, FL
    Yes, not dissimilar from Jelco, Considering standard HS weight 12g, effective mass would be 15.5g, which qualifies as medium
     
    Oelewapper likes this.
  16. Phil Thien

    Phil Thien Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Yep 3.5g w/o headshell seems very plausible.
     
  17. Davey

    Davey NP: Hania Rani/Dobrawa Czocher ~ Inner Symphonies

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    When you measure the effective mass of an arm without the headshell, it's kind of unrealistic because it is typically done at zero balance with the counterweight much closer to the pivot than it would normally be. Same applied to measuring it without a cartridge, the effect of counterweight position to balance the cartridge and screws isn't taken into account. Technics for instance used to provide a much more meaningful specification for effective mass with a 6 gram cartridge on some of their arms. That way, you could get a better estimate of the true effective mass of the arm in actual usage.

    So yes, it is a low mass arm, and plausible, though maybe not that meaningful :)
     
    Oelewapper likes this.
  18. Gramofonik

    Gramofonik Forum Resident

    Location:
    Poland
    Technics SL 1200GR - Headshell weight (about 7.4 g) is the effective mass of the arm about 4.6 g. The question is whether the effective mass is affected by the initial resistance of the arm bearings?

    Ps: Only SME III ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2023
  19. mkane

    mkane Strictly Analog

    Location:
    Auburn CA
    Wheaton Tri Planer
     
  20. Gramofonik

    Gramofonik Forum Resident

    Location:
    Poland
    Do I understand it correctly?

    The Ortofon tonearm tube for the SME III tonearm, with the Ortofon 30H cartridge, weighs 10.5g, but the effective mass, once with this tube and cartridge, is only 4.5 grams?
    (For the record, this tonearm SME III with headshell, but without the insert, has an effective weight of 5 grams)

    [​IMG]
     
  21. John Buchanan

    John Buchanan I'm just a headphone kind of fellow. Stax Sigma

    Effective mass and total weight are two different things - the article has it right.
    Below is a quote from a forum regarding this:

    Effective mass INCLUDES the influence of the counterweight. It is the resistance of the whole moving parts to motion, and the resistance to the moving parts being brought to a stop once in motion. It is also known as inertia. The best source of information is the specification provided by the manufacturer of the arm. Failing that an approximation can be arrived at by weighing measuring and calculation.

    This is interesting physics :) The concept of effective mass is this. The tonearm seems to be a complicated arrangement of moving parts however so far as the stylus is concerned the influence of all the parts of the arm can be simplified down to the moment of inertia (resistance to motion) that is present at the stylus tip, that resists the forces trying to move the stylus. The down force that is deliberately applied so that the stylus follows the groove is excluded from the analysis of effective mass. In other words effective mass is the inertia of the mass of the entire arm and cartridge that would be present if the inertia of all the moving parts was condensed into a pin-point of space at the stylus.

    Moment of inertia is the mass multiplied by the square of the distance between the mass and the pivot point. In a tonearm most of the inertia is in the mass of the cartridge and the headshell, plus the inertia of the counterweight. Because the cartridge is located much further from the pivot than the counterweight is from the pivot, the cartridge (and headshell) mass is the major component of the inertia. The arm wand, being relatively light, adds little inertia.

    This is how to make an approximate calculation from an arm with no data. This is copied without permission from a post by an absent forum member in 2009.

    's vinylforum post about tonearm effective mass 31st Dec 2009 in turntables and tonearms forum. he posted as ldg


    quote
    "I used missan's method to find the mass of the cartridge side of the tonearm. Then used I = m*(L^2)/3 to determine the MOI of that side of the arm, the RB250 being a straight tube (approx). (ed: MOI is Moment Of Inertia)

    Then worked out the effective mass of my RB250, as per the original post, and obtained a new answer, 11.1g. Published figure is usually 12g, sometimes 11g. So that's a good result - thanks guys !

    So here's a (revised) method for measuring effective mass of a tonearm. Good for tonearms that are straight, short stub, constant mass/unit length (like a non-tapered tube), and where the headshell mass is light (about the same mass/unit length as the arm - see notes below).

    Principle: To measure actual tonearm effective mass, all one needs to do is determine the moment of inertia of the tonearm about the pivot, then calculate the equivalent mass required at the effective tonearm length to provide the same moment of inertia, and that mass is then the effective mass of the tonearm.

    Step1 The tonearm is a lever balanced about the pivot. The vast majority of mass on one side of the lever is a lump mass in the form of the counterweight. So weigh the counterweight (mass m [kg]) measure the distance from the centre of the balanced counterweight to the pivot with a ruler (r [m]), and then calculate moment of inertia from I=m*r^2 [kgm^2]

    Step2 To evaluate MOI of the cartridge side of the tonearm, remove the counterbalance and cartridge (inc mountings), then use a weighing scale to measure the weight W of the tonearm at the headshell end, with the tonearm parallel to the platter. W is half the weight of the cartridge side of the tonearam (less a small bit for the stub - ignore), so the mass Z of the cartridge side of the tonearm Z = 2*W (kgf), and since it is vertical Z is also the mass in kg. The effective length L can either be measured (between stylus tip and pivot) or looked up from published figures for the tonearm. Then calculate moment of inertia from I = Z*(L^2)/3 [kgm^2]

    Step 3 Calculate the total moment of inertia I(tot)

    I(tot) = [m*(r^2)] + [Z*(L^2)/3] kgm^2

    Then effective mass M at effective length L is given by

    M*L^2 = [m*(r^2)] + [Z*(L^2)/3] kgm^2

    So M = ([m*(r^2)] + [Z*(L^2)/3])/(L^2) kg

    which reduces to

    M = [m*(r^2/L^2)] + [Z/3] kg

    In itself, this is an interesting result. It shows the contribution to effective mass from each side of the tonearm, mostly it comes from the cartridge side. It shows what to vary if one seeks to increase/decrease effective mass, principally the mass of the cartridge side of the tonearm, Z. But some influence is also possible from a heavier counterweight, and in a non-intuitive direction perhaps (heavier = lower M because balancing distance r influences M as power of 2).

    For S shaped tonearms, would need to evaluate the MOI differently. Same for tapering mass/length arms. For tubular arms with detachable headshells, MOI of arm and headshell can be evaluated seperately and added together, that is a principle of MOI, contributions of coupled parts can simply be added. The stub is relative low mass and close to the pivot. One could correct, but i think it only makes a few % difference and is OK to ignore. All of these measurements/ calcs are just for tonearm, no cartridge or fixtures fitted. Add the cartridge/fixture mass in the normal way to obtain total effective mass.
     
  22. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    E = MC^2
     
    Gramofonik likes this.
  23. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    It does have a removable head shell, but the wires from the cartridge pins don't go to the head shell, instead they go directly to the arm. So you have to unclip the tone arm wires when you remove the head shell.
     
  24. Gramofonik

    Gramofonik Forum Resident

    Location:
    Poland
    It's really amazing.
    Ortofon added the Ortofon 30H cartridge to the arm tube instead of the headshell and the effective mass decreased from 5 grams to 4.5 grams

    According to the Ortofon company, if I understand it correctly, the CA-1 SME tube with the 30H cartridge weighs 10.5 grams.
    Tomorrow, out of curiosity, I will weigh how much the original CA-1 arm tube weighs, without the cartridge, but with the original headshell.

    I still have a question, does the resistance of the tonearm bearings affect the effective mass of the tonearm (inertia)
    Logically, they should have an impact.
    but logic can lead to erroneous conclusions here.
    hmmmmm?
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2023
  25. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor. Thread Starter

    Friction is orders of magnitude lower than the effective mass of tonearms, like 200 times (10 grams vs 50mg for example).
    So I don’t expect it to be significant when it comes to tonearm resonance frequency.
     

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