Thanks. And here's the bad news: Quoted from the original post at: Tony Iommi tells Midlands Rocks the latest news on the Forbidden remix… | The Midlands Rocks I am not saying that I would like to have TYR or HC or CP remixed. But I would really like to see them re-released with extensive bonus material. The way Tony phrases his reply does not necessarily rule that out; however, it seems to me that if there were any plans to do anything with HC etc, he would have likely mentioned those in his answer. I hope I am wrong.
Some other quotes: "I’m taking my time and there is no rush with it." So perhaps then a Fall release? "Got Ice-T to appear on it on the opening track and they were from a totally different background to us... I just felt that…without changing any of the songs…" On the one hand reinforces the distaste for the collaboration, but on the other it suggests Ice-T's (not Martin's original) take is still in the mix. Does this preclude any new vocal dubs elsewhere? I can't believe they'd remix and release this without "Loser Gets it All" on the album proper, but it's not like they haven't made dumb decisions before. "Here was an opportunity to go back and bring out some of the sounds and make it more what people would expect Sabbath to sound like." See the unmixed demos. This is pretty exciting, because Tony has some great riffs on this one. Sounds like Cozy will be brought up higher in the mix, with an edgier guitar, and whatever keys further back. "I met up with Tony Martin recently and I’m sure he will listen to what I have done." As clarified by Martin earlier last week, it looks like all Martin did was come in and have a quick listen to some of what Iommi was doing with the remix.
And would you actually be surprised about that? As already said above, I think it would express a huge lack of respect towards Ice-T if they really removed him from the album. Adding the Martin-only version as bonus track, sure. Removing a singer? I don't think so, and honestly, I personally hope not. IMO, Ice-T's inclusion made for one of the better moments of that album, and I am pretty sure it would have sold worse without him.
IIRC this was always the plan after Black Sabbath: The Dio Years came out in 2007, until that project then took on a life of its own with the Dio reunion. From black-sabbath.com in 2011: "Forbidden is the only one I'm aware of that's getting a remix. All the others will get remastered." Prefer a remix but perhaps a remaster will sufficiently punch up Cross Purposes - I've always felt that was the 2nd weakest, dull sounding of the Martin albums, and the worst one musically. They can leave Headless Cross alone, though a TYR remix could be interesting, as I mentioned earlier.
I guess this is what is known as an Ozzyism : huh? And what exactly is it that Ozzy does while being Ozzy besides sing and play a bit of harmonica? .. could he be referring to the guys in Sabbath not being too keen on him biting the head off of the odd winged rodent from time to time ?
I am fully aware of those plans. It's just that it isn't Joe Siegler who makes those decisions. And it definitely wouldn't be the first time that a big project would be abandoned by Sabbath or their record companies. I do hope it will happen, I am just trying to be realistic. It's been a while since anyone who really has a say with Sabbath has said anything to the effect that those remasters will happen, or did I miss anything?
The choice quote posted was not Siegler's opinion, but word from people purportedly working with Iommi and the record companies at the time. The rest of that thread is his informed speculation about the nature and challenges facing said releases, which I happen to respect. Obviously, this all was 7-8 years ago, but Iommi's sentiment expressed yesterday suggests nothing has changed.
That's a very optimistic way of reading Tony's words. Bigger decisions have been retracted in Sabbath's history. I am not doubting at all that these remasters WERE planned at that point - I have been reading Siegler's site too. I just find it significant that it has been years since anything like that was said. But again, I HOPE it will happen. P.s.: What company would be re-releasing those IRS albums now anyway? BMG? And 7-8 years back, would it have been Universal?
What a waste of time. I could care less about the Martin era. Have all of them, the only one I ever play is Cross Purposes.
I seriously hope that others who dislike the Tony Martin era in general or Forbidden in particular will not bump in here just to repeat that. That would be really boring. I dislike a lot of music discussed on this forum, but I wouldn't tell it in every thread where people discuss that music.
Well, I am psyched for this remix ! Big fan of the Tony M era, and Forbidden is one I've never owned on vinyl. Can't wait to hear it.
As expected, Ernie C tells the "Forbidden" story quite differently from the two Tonys: ERNIE C Defends His Production On BLACK SABBATH's 'Forbidden' Album: I Wanted 'To Dry The Sound Up A Little Bit' And given how much tendentious and/or ever-changing accounts (including some obvious lies) of diverse events I have heard from many of Sabbath's members or ex-members, I am definitely not willing to favor the Tonys' story over Ernie's unless I get to see some proof. Actually I have always liked the dryness of Forbidden's sound. There are problems with the production, but its sounding dry was never my complaint.
Typical response. Someone does not care and therefor time should not be spent on a project. Well i like the Martin era, so to me it is a welcome project.
I think the proof...is in what you hear. It sounds like the recording and mixing were rushed and unprofessional. OK...the guitars are dry. Got it Ernie...but the keyboards are louder than the guitars in parts and the vocals sound like you took the scratch tracks and used them instead of getting a better take. It reminds me of being back in engineering school mix lab. They would give you a little mixing board and like one effect and have you do a mix in an hour. Sure, it's a demo mix of sorts and kinda listenable; but not the same as going on a big board with racks of effects and spending the day (or longer) on the song.
Just listen to the demos... That's all the proof one needs. The recording on tape is lifeless by comparison. The songs are hit and miss, but I vibrant production can blur that (c.f. a lot of Maiden albums in the 80s). If iommi can reproduce the demos in an official form, with a few overdubs, I think you have a winner. Including "loser gets it all" on the album proper (not a second disc), would be a capstone.
I like the Martin-era but this project is kind of perplexing to me. Forbidden is done and that’s the end of it. I never thought it was as bad as many people felt, but it’s thin, compressed sound is the least of its issues. A lot of the material sounded like that era of the band was running out of gas. It ended with the amazing “Kiss of Death” but a lot of those songs just sounded like Tony wasn’t sure where to go with Sabbath. Cross Purposes had been very strong, but now Geezer was gone again and it was back to the Tyr lineup yet music had changed SO much between 1990 and 1995. I never had any issue with Illusion of Power. One of the better tracks and the lyrics were excellent. Loved Martin’s singing on it. A bit more raw than he had typically been before, and the spoken word rap by Ice-T was very different from what was being done with the merging of metal and rap prior. It was definitely Black Sabbath with guest Ice-T not Sabbath plays rap metal. Unfortunately the album then goes a bit fluffy and there are just too many tracks which are fine in their own way, but don’t live up to the name.
I think a valid argument could be made for bestowing unconditional love on the lesser works of an iconic band, simply because an individual was a fan of the band, to be equally as boring.
Just to illustrate, here is a cut from Forbidden "I Won't Cry For You" that I actually don't like, but here at least sounds interesting in its more lively, instrumental form. Some albums are good despite bad production; others need good production to get the energy on tape. Perhaps I'm being too optimistic.
I guess I phrased my point badly. My asking for "proof" wasn't meant to refer to the quality of Forbidden's production or sound. I was referring to how differently the story of the involvement of Ernie and Ice-T has been told. The two Tonys sometimes make it sound like record company or management more or less forced Sabbath into collaborating with Ernie and Ice-T and that the band itself was very skeptical of the whole thing. Ernie's story sounds quite different. As for the remix, I am trying to hope for the best. The last two studio albums Tony Iommi released, 13 and The Devil You Know, were both compressed to death. Album list - Dynamic Range Database Album list - Dynamic Range Database I am not saying Tony was the main responsible person for that, but I do believe he could have prevented it if he had disagreed. I guess what I am trying to say is Tony does not seem to have the same preferences regarding sound and production as many people on this forum (incl. myself).
Thanks for the input. We didn't need it. You don't like the Martin era, so why even bother posting? You're already biased. Forbidden could be improved with a remix, if sone properly.
You can have a compressed album and have it still sound pretty good. I think Hardwired to Self-Destruct is a decent example. But you're right - there's some head winds on this, to be sure.
I agree. Certainly compression is not the only relevant factor in the quality of a production. I just picked it out because it is a rather obvious, and measurable, one. I could add that both albums, 13 and TDYK, sound polished, sterile and samey. My point is: as much as I respect Tony I., I don't see much reason to assume that his remix will significantly improve Forbidden. I just hope he will at least not worsen it, and give us some bonus stuff to enjoy.
