The sound of 13 is probably more Rick Rubin than Iommi. Maybe Andy Sneap can work on the Forbidden remix.
Yes, but again, Iommi accepted it, and accepted it before with TDYK. All I am saying is that I don't see much proof for the idea that Tony Iommi's sound preferences match ours (and it goes without saying that ours = SHF members' preferences are extremely diverse as well). The bigger the hype created around this remix, the deeper the fall when it will be finished.
I guess we're looking for different things. I actually don't care that much what it sounds like audiophile wise. I care far more what it sounds like musically. Given Iommi is focusing on the latter, I'd settle for a brick walled album that is at least energetic and, well, Sabbathy. From all reports that's what will be delivered. I guess I can't imagine Iommi spending days, months just to bring Martin's vocals up 5% in the mix. I anticipate a wholesale recasting of the album, with possibly some overdubs, of the order seen from Vapor Trails to Vapor Trails Remixed. Anything less and there would be no point to the excercise. I guess time will tell.
I think that's a very good point. Yes, we're probably looking for different things. Plus, maybe I was mingling remix and remaster too much. And I think I have to listen to Forbidden another time soon. It's been a while. Now listening to Kiss of Death, what a fantastic song.
To the extent that Iommi listens to Martin - and it sounds like Iommi cares a little bit, given that he invited Martin over to hear what he was doing on the remix - also suggests the changes could be dramatic given that Martin probably hated the final product more than anyone.
Yeah, that makes sense. While Iommi obviously hasn't't fulfilled Martin's wishes of re-doing the lyrics of the album and create new music together, the invitation does signal that he might take into account his feedback regarding the remix. Given their history, that's not so bad.
Some fairly recent (2017) thoughts by Neil Murray on his time in Sabbath, as well as some discussion of Forbidden. A couple excerpts: "The record company were pushing us to be more current, and more relevant. In the late eighties, when Cozy was almost joint leader of the band with Tony Iommi, there was a leaning towards melodic sensibilities and eighties-type sounds, and when Cozy and myself re-joined in ’94, and discussions were going on about who should produce the album, the original idea was Ice-T was going to produce, in actual fact, but he delegated it to the guitarist from his metal band Body Count, Ernie C." "Cozy wasn’t happy anyway that the balance of power shifted, and he was much more just a backing musician than he had been before, and he wasn’t terribly enthused by some of the ideas that were coming out of the record company, or even some of the song ideas. And then, the way the production came out with that very dry, ‘dead’ sound, and the drums being really not sounding particularly like Cozy Powell, was the icing on the cake, really."
It is always funny to me when record companies think they know better than Tony Iommi and Cozy Powell about how a record should sound.
Thanks! Nice read, although it always makes me a little sad reading Neil's thoughts on his career - he doesn't sound really happy to me. Anyway, this also prompted me to re-read the following 2017 interview with Tony Iommi: Black Sabbath Tony Iommi eonmusic Interview June 2017 and there was this rather clear statement about possible future collaborations with Tony Martin: "There’s been talk that you may work with former Black Sabbath singer Tony Martin again." "Yeah, Tony Martin said that. Is there a possibility that that might happen? There’s a possibility to anything, really. There’s nothing set in stone. I just spoke to him about maybe one day doing a couple of things, but I’ve spoke to a lot of people about that." I remember when Tony Martin and Tony Iommi had met for the first time in ages, and the first thing Tony Martin did afterwards was posting on Facebook that they had talked about a possible future collaboration, and it sounded almost like they had decided it would happen. I think Iommi's response above makes t pretty clear that Martin had been much too hasty. I don't know why Martin wrote that Facebook post - maybe he hoped it would push Iommi into really starting a project with him (huge misconception), or maybe Iommi had been a little too polite when they talked and Martin mistook that politeness for enthusiasm.
Tony Iommi is a wealthy, (semi) retired musician with absolutely no deadline. And he has no deadline for a project that relatively speaking no one is interested in. I'd be interested to know from someone who's done mixing work, if you were given an eleven song album with instructions to mix it, how long would it take? And then imagine if it was your album, meaning you were the primary creative force behind writing and recording it to begin with. And you've already got a 20 year blueprint for how you DON'T want it to sound. And you're entirely mixing it to your own standards. How long could this possibly take? If it isn't done, maybe it isn't getting done.
Good question! Anyone got an answer? Tony did say he was already remixing it with Mike Exeter, and IIRC he played some (preliminary?) version to Tony Martin when Martin visited him. Some time has passed since then though, so I've been wondering what happened to it. Given that they did work on it already AND talked about it, I wouldn't expect them to just stop before it is finished. But if it was finished and they were actually planning to release it soon, I would expect some talk about it.
Iommi may be semi-retired, but he's also ambitious, hyper creative, borderline workaholic, and I suspect gets a lot of enjoyment out of doing this sort of thing. Whatever his faults, Iommi doesn't typically leave things unfinished, and his lifespan is anything but certain. The expected release date is sometime in 2019.
I don’t get why he wants to remix Forbidden. My guess is that he regrets how Cozy’s drums sounded, but the songs are what they are. “Kiss Of Death” was a an absolute monster track but other than that it was pretty slim pickings. “Illusion of Power” was good also but jeez, this album should be left in the “over and done with” history bin. The other possibility is that he might want to do a couple of tracks with Tony Martin, and he thinks tacking them onto this project is the best way to do that. What I don’t like is that Ernie C. is kind of being criticized in all of this, and the bottom line is that the idea was to dry things up a bit to compete with the sounds of the time. Maybe Iommi and Powell were unhappy with how it came out, but the album was not regarded as a great Sabbath album because of the material first and foremost. Look at Born Again; it sounded like crap but plenty of people hold it in very high regard (I’m not one of them) because the music had appeal to many Sabbath fans. Forbidden could have sounded like Sabotage and it still would not have been viewed as a great Sabbath album, IMO.
Totally disagree. I think there is a solid album under the terrible production. Looking forward to it being fixed!
It is a shame "Loser Gets It All" was a Japanese bonus track. It deserves to be heard by more people. It doesn't need remixing either, it is already a great song.
Some very good points IMO! I find it pretty stupid how much of the Forbidden debacle is blamed on Ernie C. and Ice-T - a move that seems to work rather well not least because of the common resentment against rap and hip hop in parts of the metal and rock communities. The claim, repeatedly made, that the record company or Ernie or Ice-T was trying to force Sabbath to make a "rap album" is ridiculous. And while I am not a big fan of Forbidden's production, some statements of (former) band members and others seem to imply that the album had sounded so much better if it had featured the old big 1980ies drum sound - which I think is rather laughable too. Unlike you, I do like most songs on the album though, even though I can see that some or most of them would have benefited from better conditions in the studio and, probably more important, from a more serious involvement of Iommi who was probably already thinking too much about a forthcoming reunion of the original line-up. Also, some of Tony Martin's lyrics sound like he is trying too hard to be something he just isn't - especially on Get a Grip. I don't think that a remix alone will make up for that. I was/am really hoping the two Tonys would record some new songs for the album, but at this point it doesn't seem very likely, given that the remix is supposed to be released in 2019, and even Tony Martin sounded rather skeptical after his visit at Iommi's. EDIT: Ironically, on Get a Grip Martin himself sounds like he the one trying to do a "rap album" - which doesn't really work IMO, not because rap is bad (I don't think it is), but because it sounds fake the way he does it. "Illusion of Power" came out much better IMO.
Very interesting points. I wasn’t even thinking about the crossover “rap” component that some fans have cited through the years. Which is, of course, ridiculous. Another element here could be at play here is that Tony is simply aware of the “remix fad” and figures Forbidden is an album he’d like to take a shot at.
Oh, indeed, I totally forgot that remixes are popular these days. Iommi might also feel that Forbidden is a good album to start with, like a test run for more popular albums, precisely because so many people dislike it. If the Forbidden remix is a flop, it will not bother anyone too much; if it is a success, they can maybe go on with other albums. On the other hand, he originally wanted to do a remix of Born Again too - they just didn't find the multi tracks. Maybe it's really just the way Tony says: he thinks Forbidden is an album that would sound better remixed. I don't know. I am much more interested in possible bonus material, new as well as previously unreleased recordings. I do hope that the release will include something we haven't got already, but I don't really believe it will.
