Too Many Speakers — Help Me Whittle Down the List

Am hearing many good things (elsewhere) about Linn Majik 140 floorstanders (and my dealer seems to love Linn speakers).

Guess I’m gonna add ‘em to the list.

But, no one here has heard them, yes?
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Three years ago, I auditioned speakers at two separate dealers, and each dealer had a totally different-sounding listening room.

I took my own Croft amps and my MA speakers to every audition with the aim of acclimatising to how my own kit sounded in the dealer's listening room prior to auditioning any new kit, and the difference became clear when listening to my own kit in each listening room. In the end, this kind of b*ggered things up.

The Dynaudio Contour 20s that I brought home from one dealer sounded similar at home, but the Proac SM100s that I brought home from the other dealer didn't. And it was at this other dealer that I'd rejected my now beloved Russell K Red 150s.

So please don't be too disappointed if the first set of home auditions doesn't deliver the desired results. It's just how these things sometimes go.

 

Firstly, I listened to the Red 120s at the dealer, but found them to be slightly dry-sounding and "forward" in the mid-range.

Then I listened to the Proac SM100s and found them to sound quite lively and exciting. I actually liked them to the point that I just wanted to listen to different tracks on them for pleasure.

Then I listened to the Red 150s and found them to be slightly soft and laid back-sounding when compared to the SM100s, and also when compared to my own Monitor Audio GS60s. So I rejected the Red 150s and borrowed the SM100s for a home audition.

When I listened to the SM100s at home, however, I actually found them to be harsh-sounding in my lounge. The Dynaudio Contour 20s that I'd borrowed from another dealer sounded far better (and far more similar to how they sounded in the dealer's listening room), but they weren't really efficient enough for my Croft amps, so they struggled to shine.

After this, I had a think and asked to borrow the Red 150s. When I listened to the Red 150s at home, they weren't laid back any more, but there were some issues with timing. They were low on boogie factor. This was fixed when Russell Kauffman himself came to visit. Part of the problem was that I needed to lift my mains distribution block off the floor. This really improved the timing. Russell also asked me to remove some figurines that were stood on top of the speakers. The Red 150s have "live" cabinets, and placing objects on the cabinets diminished the sound quality. With the figurines on top, the speakers sounded shut-in.

In a subsequent visit, Russell also helped me to position them better.

We have a lounge-diner that's 7.3M long. The lounge part is at the front and is 3.45M wide, with a bow window at the front of it. There's a fireplace and chimney breast on the RH side wall and a large sofa on the LH side wall.

The Red 150s are placed 0.43M from the front wall, i.e. in front of the bow window. When looking at them from my sitting position, they are 0.48M from the RH side wall and 0.76M from the LH side wall. My ears are approximately 3M from the centre point between the speakers.

Russell Kauffman provides detailed instructions regarding how to position the speakers, and their current position is the result of following these instructions with Russell doing much of the lifting and shifting. He even specifies 5 degrees of toe-in and that the speakers should be leaned back by a very small amount to aid driver alignment and timing.

With the Red 150s properly set up, they're lovely to listen to. They're extremely musical. Lots of music just pours out of them. They are also excellent at portraying emotion. In terms of bass, they go very, very deep. Even deeper than my old MA GS60s could. The bass is, however, more subtle than the MAs.

In terms of detail, again the Red 150s are subtle. There's loads of detail, but it's musical and natural instead of cold and clinical. So if I want to study Frank Sinatra's singing technique in terms of how he uses his voice then I can. If, instead, I just want to feel his emotion then I can do that as well.

The Red 150s also seem to be able to call to me saying "Please listen to this." During my home audition, I sat down in the lounge with my laptop PC. I had the Red 150s on at low volume and a piece of classical music was playing as background music. However, I then found myself having to stop working on the laptop because the music was demanding to be heard.

The Red 150s are also deceptively loud. Distortion is so low, however, that I was once worried that they weren't going as loud as I wanted. What was really happening, however, is that they weren't distorting. The information that eventually proved this to me was that when I turned the volume up too high then my ears started to physically hurt. Further evidence is that if I go into the room above the lounge then it can sometimes sound as though there's a live gig happening downstairs.

In terms of Red 120 versus Red 150, I've never heard the Red 120s at home but I do know enough to say that if your room is big enough then the Red 150s are by far the better speaker, in part because they use better drivers.

Last year I was able to borrow a prototype 25W/channel valve amplifier, and when I listened to it using the Red 150s I heard all kinds of new musical subtleties that my own Croft amps weren't revealing. This told me that my Red 150s were better than my Croft amps and that I needed to have my Croft amps upgraded. So I had my Croft amps upgraded with some higher quality components by Glenn Croft and I can now hear via my Croft kit a lot of what the prototype amp revealed to me.

This, in turn, tells me that the Red 150s will probably still be there if I ever upgrade other parts of the system.

I hope that this answers your questions and doesn't sound too much like a commercial for Russell K.

 

For me, it's another case of acoustic conditioning, even better with the help of the designer.

We don't listen to speakers in our homes, we listen to the room ... I really encourage you do an analysis with a free software called REW and then apply dsp correction. You'll have new speakers with the same Red 150s.

 

$9k will buy you a lot of active speaker...

 

Yes, I agree ... and many with dsp correction included.

 

Thanks very much for your detailed impressions, much appreciated and very insightfull. So cool that 'the man' himself came round to help out with positioning !
My living room has about the same size as yours (only slightly wider) and listening position will also be at 3mtr (give or take). I understand what you are trying to say with 'they demand your attention' as I heard the 120's play very softly at my dealer when I was waiting for something...I just had to sit down in front of them and was taken away by how nice and deep the soundstage was at this very low volume.

Sorry to OP for sidetracking a bit here!

 

*shakes fist at Bever*
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ATC SCM 19As, for instance.
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Yep, though I wouldn't write Genelec, or B&O out the frame either. I've heard both, albeit a few years ago now and been impressed. You should get a pretty clean bass, no boom, and while the treble is clear, it's not strident. I wouldn't write out the more expensive studio monitors or some new old stock AVI ADM40 floorstanders if you can get them, or the DM10 or 12 models either. Availability may be an issue where you are though, but if you do happen to get a chance, check them out.

 

From your list of speakers I've owned ProAcs, Dynaudios and ATCs and heard Harbeth and Vandersteen speakers. When properly implemented they can all sound good, but I concur with one of the previous posters and say that there is something right about a properly (and I mean properly) amplified passive or active ATC speaker with a high quality source.
You will need a high quality high power amplifier with the passive ATCs though, 75-100W and co won't cut it. No wonder that with the SCM40A there is a total of 242W onboard. I had temporarily used a Teddy Pardo i80a integrated amplifier (80W, wonderful sounding) with the SCM40s while I was acquiring the pre/-poweramp combination I had in mind and it just couldn't drive them the way I would have wanted it to do. Only after getting a power amplifier, which puts out lots of clean power and has adequate damping factor, did I begin to really appreciate what the ATCs can do. And one of the great benefits was that the low-level listening has greatly improved. In the right settings and with the right equipment they are never harsh, regardless of the SPLs at play.

 

Really excellent point, passive ATCs will need serious juice (though maybe the 19s a bit less so?).

Someone on the forum (Rich Austen?) was saying something about the new Parasound A23+ power amp (160w) being a good match for ATCs, and for only $1595 too (aka a lot cheaper than ATC's own standalone power amps).

If so, that makes passive ATCs a better value than they were previously, if you can get a lot of clean quality power for 'em on the sorta cheap.
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Not much help @Cyclone Ranger so apologies for that. Have you, or anyone here given Legacy speakers a listen? An on-line friend of mine swears by the Signature SE's he purchased this year.

 

I see no point for anyone to buy passive ATC's if he can afford the active version. No amp will match the active crossover and the multiple monoblocks the brand has matched with their drivers. No point also to buy a 2 way ATC if you can afford a 3 way with their mid dome, it's in another league.

I would check the 25A, 40A and 45A, they can be end speakers if someone doesn't like changing equimpent all the time.

 

Hey, I've been following your posts about the Red 150s for a while and am envious of the special attention you received by the man himself;-) I've got the Red 100 for 5 years now - mainly for budget and room size issues - but I must say I'm very happy with them, especially since they suit my eclectic tastes very well, and can never listen to anything louder than around 65 dB (at least according to an iPhone App I use. The volume knob on my amp - with volume off kind of at "7 o'clock@ position - rarely passes "10 o'clock", usually around "9 o'clock".

I was wondering if you had (will have) a chance to audition the Red 150 SE version (not sure if already available)? If I ever get a budget, I might upgrade to those..

Eric

 

Russell's offices are only around 30 minutes from my house, and I live near Deco Audio, who are one of his customers, so a visit was easy to achieve (and greatly beneficial to me).

I was offered the chance to listen to the SEs last year but, sadly, time wouldn't allow. At this time I believe that they aren't yet released. There are a couple of reviews out there of prototypes, and they would suggest that the SEs will be good, if also a bit more expensive. I currently do have the time, however, so perhaps I need to contact Russell again.

 

Well, the 'over on their sides' SCM 25A and 45A are not what you'd call aesthetically pleasing (aka pro gear), and the active SCM40A is $14K (passive is $7K).

Can actually afford the actives, but it's a bit hard to justify to myself. Might possibly give 'em a listen anyway, in case I'm utterly blown away.
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New contenders list. Thanks to everyone who shared insights.

Linn Majik 140
Joseph Audio Prism
ATC SCM 19 (passive)
ProAC DT8
Harbeth CS7ES3 XD
Harbeth 30.1 or 30.2 XD
ATC SCM40 (passive)
Joseph Audio Profile
Harbeth SHL5+ XD
Joseph Audio Pulsar

Do worry that a few of them are still a little too big for my mid-sized room (12'x17.5', 7' listening distance)... namely the ATC 40, the Linn, and the Harbeth SHL5 XD.

And, it's an an interesting mix of speakers overall.... 'BBC sound' (Harbeth) vs monitor sound (ATC) vs 'Hi-Fi sound 2.0' (Joseph), plus whatever ProAc and Linn are.
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In my point of view the Kef Reference 1 or 3 are pretty good contenders on that list. Hand made in UK with a strong emphasis in measurements, as pointed by Raymond Cooke (the founder engineer). Was one of the first speaker brands to include scientific measurement to their build process using a HP fourier analyzer machine in 1960. In fact, Kef was an OEM drivers provider for Lynn, Proac, Sonus Faber, Meridian and others like Wilson Audio.

You can visit the Kef Reference topic if you need more details

 

I must say in the 1960s ... timed out to edit the date reference



Kef and Bradford university team with the machine in 1969 ... 60000 usd ... something like 300000 today.

 

Very interested to see where you go with this. I'm looking to pull the trigger on a pair of speakers next year that will hopefully be "endgame" in the $10K range, and quite a few of the ones I am interested in are on your list. I wish you luck (and fun) in your search and hope you keep us posted!

 

Oh no prob, I will. Though as I’ve said, this is more an end-of-year thing, or maybe not ‘til January.
And, I’m actually auditioning sources first...
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Yea I'm pretty much on the same timeline...end of 2021...you're going amps first? Good luck!

 

If Harbeth are still in the running you’d be doing yourself a major disservice to not audition others of their ilk, i.e. Graham/Spendor/Stirling/Rogers. Harbeth has a large distribution network and has greater popularity here in the States but that doesn’t mean they sound best. They make some lofty claims of their Radial cones but I find their midrange the least impressive among these brands (and others). They’re good speakers nonetheless, but their current prices make them a poor value, frankly. The Stirling SB-88 for example, is a much superior speaker than the C7ES3 and I know a dealer that will sell them for a smidge over $3K. The Seas A26s I built for an approximate total of $1500 are also better, the only exception being 10Hz of bass extension.

Still, I’d bet the JA speakers are better than any of the aforementioned. The same likely applies for the Active ATCs.

With a $9K/pair budget, I’d wait til Covid calms down in the Spring and take a short vacation to allow for a road trip, or even some flights to dealers that will accommodate auditions of some less common suspects.

 

We're certainly all over the hifi map here. I'll be interested to see how this plays out in the end...