Top Ten Composers

Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure. . .

I'm a Mahler fan, have to say that it's like Proust—either you're into long* paragraphs or your not. Mahler's music requires a different kind of attention than Bach.

However, it not fair to compare anyone to Bach. You are right. And in the St. Matthew Passion Bach writes paragraphs as big and poetic as anything in Proust.

*at times interminable . . .

 

Aside from the date/time stamp on our posts, I don't think anything on this forum is objective!

 

You beat me to it!

That's the first thing I thought of when I saw Bach recognized ...

 

Managed to miss the second half of "The Vienna Four," featuring Beethoven and Schubert:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/01/07/arts/music/20110107-top-ten-composers.html#schubert

 

The Three Bs

 

Biber, Busoni & Bax?

Bacharach, Boulez & Berio?

 

In today's episode, Anthony Tommasini focuses on Wagner and Verdi:

. . . Opera, you could argue (and many readers have), is a different animal. But Verdi and Wagner were great students of Beethoven, and their operas have symphonic sweep, architectonic integrity and orchestral richness galore. In addition, you cannot discount their enduring popularity. . . .​

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2...g-operas-shakespeare-and-its-proust/?ref=arts

 

By declaring that Verdi and Wagner will make the list, we can now safely assume that five spots are reserved for: J.S. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Verdi.

 

And I guess Debussy's on board as well.

 

I don't think you'll be wrong!

 

From Today' NYT:

Top 10 Composers: The Female Factor
By ANTHONY TOMMASINI

Anthony Tommasini has been exploring the qualities that make a classical composer great, maybe even the best of all time. Watch videos and vote for your own top 10 here and read previous posts here and share your thoughts in the comments field. Mr. Tommasini’s final list will be posted on Friday.

TAs my two-week project to identify the top 10 composers in history has been rolling out, I have been wondering whether any readers would write in asking why no female composers are under consideration. Few have even been mentioned as long-shot contenders.

Well, some strong advocates of female composers have now spoken up, especially Elizabeth M. Williams, who proposed that, at the very least, there might be a separate, female top 10 project. Among the candidates she proposed, excluding living composers, are Fanny Mendelssohn, Clara Schumann, Amy Beach, Libby Larsen, Ruth Crawford Seeger and more.

The sad truth is that until relatively recent decades, women have had severely limited opportunities within all the arts, especially music and, even more, composition. Some of the prejudice stemmed from the deep-seated male chauvinism of Western culture. Mozart’s older sister Nannerl, for example, though not as talented as Wolfgang (has anyone been as talented as our Wolfgang?), was an accomplished prodigy who was initially sent on showcase tours with her brother. If the conditions for women had been more favorable, Nannerl might have been encouraged to continue with music and become a professional. Instead, once she grew out of the cute little girl prodigy stage, she was directed on a path toward marriage. She eventually settled down with a twice-widowed Austrian prefect who had five children, and she lived to 78 (while her high-stressed brother died at 35).

But the main reason, I think, that there were so few female composers during the glory centuries of classical music is that composers depend on performing musicians and ensembles to play their works, and until relatively recent times, musicians, ensembles and musical institutions were overwhelmingly male.

There were a significant number of female novelists, poets and painters in earlier times. But if you were a Jane Austen, you could sit at home and write your novels. As long as you found a sympathetic publisher, you could get your books distributed and be acknowledged. Compare this to the situation facing Clara Schumann, one of the most celebrated pianists of the 19th century. She was also a gifted composer, though she mostly wrote piano pieces, songs, chamber works: things that she and a circle of musician friends could perform. If she had tried to compose symphonies and operas, even she, for all her renown, would have hit a dead end with male orchestras and opera companies, which would have been unwilling to champion the works of a woman. So why bother?

There would be several obvious female contenders for a list of top 10 novelists. Or poets. But consider this: Where are the great female playwrights of earlier centuries? Again, this is the same problem as with female composers: what theater company was willing to present plays by women?

The last 50 years, especially the last couple of decades, have brought expanding opportunities for women in music. Our orchestras are filled with female players. In most conservatories, usually half of the composition students are women these days. A list of important living composers would absolutely include many women, among them Kaija Saariaho, Sofia Gubaidulina, Libby Larsen, Judith Weir, Joan Tower, Chen Yi, Ellen Taaffe Zwilich, Augusta Read Thomas, Jennifer Higdon and more. So if we have a top 10 composers survey 100 years from now, the finalists might well include both sexes. For now, alas, my list is all male.​

I've got a recording credit with Chen Yi!



PS: the "Frog Girls" are wearing body stockings.

 

Personally - I dunno - I enjoy Verdi, but I wouldn't place him above any of the four Viennese composers.

And according to the article we need to add Stravinsky to the locks. I would rate him lower than top 10, but I find that easier to understand than Verdi.

 

I would add Mahler and remove Verdi.

Bach
Mozart
LvB
Wagner
Mahler

 

Devil take the hindmost

So I checked Top Ten Composers again, seeing if Tony 'da Man' Tommasini posted another video and landed on:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...op-ten-composers.html?scp=1&sq=top ten&st=cse

. . . where You can vote, with totals for all [current] votes visable after you vote, much like polls on the Hoffman Forum.

My list ended up [more or less] like this :

Bach
Beethoven​

. . . in that order and instantly . . .

Brahms
Messiaen​

. . . which kinda surprised me. I suppose witnessing the birthing of Éclairs sur l'au-delà… has more than a little to do with my feelings for this composer. And Lord knows I've got a thing for "weird for the sake of being weird."*

Mozart
Schubert
Mahler​

Guess I've got a thing for the Viennese° . . .

Sibelius​

. . . my very first classical LP—Finlandia, Swan of Tuonela, Valse Triste, Tapiola, all performed by the Berlin Philharmonic as lead by Herr Karajan on his very best behavior. Left a big impression.

And then a bit of agonizing over what I thought would have been my last selection.

Bruckner​

. . . reaches a place that feels heroic, his music contains grand and inspiring gestures, embodies a kind of greatness.

And then I realized that there was one more selection and that I overlooked

Chopin.​

I would have included Marin Marais, François Couperin, Hildegarde von Bingen and John Dowland if I could. I would have included Iannis Xenakis if I could.

And besides—15 is such a nice, round number.

*Moe Szyslak's definition of Postmodern

°"I understand you haf relatives in Vienna?"

 

The Top 10 Composers: The Romantics:

In my exercise of sorting through the great composers of history to determine the Top 10, I have been putting off dealing with the 19th-century Romantic era (except for those giants of opera, Verdi and Wagner, who have already made the cut). But there is a reason. Music lovers have long been understandably enthralled with Chopin, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Berlioz, Liszt, Tchaikovsky, Brahms and their Romantic brethren. For better or worse, their works still dominate the standard repertory. Yet their music is so personal and idiosyncratic that it is hard to assess it in terms of greatness.

These creators are not called Romantics for nothing. The Romantic movement emerged from the Classical heritage, in which composers expressed themselves through large, formal structures: symphony, sonata, string quartet, concerto. But the Romantic aesthetic emboldened composers to be more passionate, rhapsodic and personal. Formal structures were loosened, as music became a channel for strongly individual, often quirky, even eccentric expression. Literature, nature and history were favorite sources of inspiration. . .

. . . I’m still in a quandary about where to place Chopin and Schumann and their Romantic brethren. But Brahms is looking pretty good.

​

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/the-top-10-composers-the-romantics/

 

I know I'm in a small minority, but I find more musical pleasure in Brahms than in Beethoven. And probably more than I find in Mozart.

 

"I Am The Greatest!"

I know what you mean—I'm a big fan of the recently deceased Captain Beefheart. But I'm used to being an outlier.

Back to the thread—Are we surprised to find that Tony finds Bach reigning supreme?

The Greatest
By ANTHONY TOMMASINI
Published: January 21, 2011

HERE goes. This article completes my two-week project to select the top 10 classical music composers in history, not including those still with us. The argument, laid out in a series of articles, online videos and blog posts, was enlivened by the more than 1,500 informed, challenging, passionate and inspiring comments from readers of The New York Times. As often as I could, I answered direct questions online and jumped into the discussion.

I am about to reveal my list, though as those who have been with me on this quest already know, I’ve dropped hints along the way. And the winner, the all-time great, is ... Bach! . . .​

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/23/arts/music/23composers.html?ref=global-home

 

No, not surprised, though I am appalled that Chopin didn't make the cut.

Since Tony didn't neatly list them, I'll do so here:

1. JS Bach
2. Beethoven
3. Mozart
4. Schubert
5. Debussy
6. Stravinsky
7. Brahms
8. Verdi
9. Wagner
10. Bartok

 

Just read the article. He makes his case well, for the most part. Still, I'm aghast at Stravinsky and Bartok and not Haydn. Not that I dislike those two; on the contrary. At least he admits choosing Stravinsky because of the large personal influence, noting what an effect the composer's death had on him in 1971. I suspect though if AT had been alive in 1809 that would have been an even bigger deal.

 

It was strange to essentially disqualify Monteverdi, as AT admits in his article today. Surely he'd have been a top ten choice.

I agree-- Haydn's omission probably the worst. Brahms at 7 is way too lofty; he's not on my list at all, though in the second 10, certainly.

But the greatest omission this side of Monteverdi and Haydn? Amply-qualified to trump both Stravinsky and Bartok... Don't laugh.

Richard Strauss.

 

Any top ten without Tchaikovsky lacks credibility. The Mozart and Beethoven of his time.

 

All these he included, and he excluded Mahler? I exclude Tommasini. And I emailed him to tell him so. http://www.nytimes.com/membercenter/emailus.html

 

I'm not laughing. Elektra, Salome, Metamorphosen, those three works are up there with the best of Stravinsky. I also love the Horn Concertos, Der Rosenkavalier, Tod und Verklärung, Capriccio, The Alpine Symphony, Four Last Songs, Violin Sonata. In the end, I think have to give the nod to Stravinsky, though, simply because he was the revolutionary.

 

+ Schubert

Of course, the Big Three B's are Bach, Brahms and Beethoven

 

Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, in particular, will always have that cachet, right? The legendary premiere/riot in Paris, etc. There's a glamor to Stravinsky... And Strauss? I think he'll always be hampered by the Nazi unpleasantness, causing us to underrate pieces like the late operas and Metamorphosen. For some period of time after the war, it was politically correct to claim Strauss composed nothing of value after Rosenkavalier. Of course, the Four Last Songs helped change that.

So-- I'll stick with Strauss over Stravinsky, and--

Schumann before Brahms. and

Janacek before Bartok.

No contemporary/late 20th C. figures, but Debussy turned out to be by far the most influential composer of the past 100 years. Five seems right for him.