Tri-Amping?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by SquishySounds, Aug 30, 2017.

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  1. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    What exactly is gained, excepting inserting a digital device into a purely analog signal?

    I have nothing against digital music. I have several digital sources.

    People go out and purchase expensive DAC's in order to convert that digital signal back to it's original analog wave form.

    Once my signal leaves the DAC, having been converted to an analog waveform, it stays purely analog all the way to the passive crossover network and finally to the speakers themselves.

    Since that was my objective in the first place, I can't see any reason to insert something digital into the chain.

    Some speakers may sound better when used with a digital crossover, others will not. The only way to tell is to actually try it.

    Doing digital is a lot easier than doing analog.

    Buying a CD player and playing a CD is a lot easier and way less expensive than spending thousands on a vinyl rig.

    From that argument, it doesn't really make sense, to do vinyl, when you can just pop in a CD, yet vinyl is still alive and kicking, for the moment, anyway.
     
  2. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    Hi Warren and @SandAndGlass

    As someone who was very late to embrace digital, loved vinyl, have owned several Linn active systems, this below intrigues me. I have not heard an Exakt system, and apart from being a Linn dealer in the 80s and 90s and owning Linn equipment, have no affiliation.

    Linn now digitise the output of the LP12 at the earliest opportunity (I was shocked when I first read it), I believe the next step is probably RIAA equalisation in the digital domain.

    It is certainly a very bold approach, and the technology is available for non-Linn speakers, including B&W.

    The Exakt revolution
    Exakt technology delivers a breakthrough in audio performance; the most direct connection ever made between you and the artist. It extends the lossless digital signal path further than ever before — eliminating sources of noise and distortion.

    What’s wrong with the traditional analogue signal path?
    Even the best analogue hi-fi systems suffer from loss at each stage of the signal’s journey. Analogue components introduce loss in two forms: noise and distortion.

    [​IMG]
    Loss is inevitable at each analogue stage of the traditional hi-fi system

    The Exakt signal path
    Exakt keeps the signal digital for longer and removes several lossy analogue stages. The sources of distortion and noise that were previously present in the player, pre-amp, crossover and analogue cables have now all been eliminated.

    [​IMG]
    Exakt keeps the signal digital right up until the last possible stage

    Exakt preserves the lossless digital signal perfectly all the way from the player, right through the crossover and volume controls. The signal is only converted to analogue at the final amplification stage, where separate amplifiers are given the maximum amount of musical information to feed each drive unit. This can be achieved using an integrated Exakt speaker (illustrated above) or using a separate Exaktbox and external amplification.

    Exakt Link
    In order to deliver the digital signal losslessly to the speaker, Linn developed a new protocol — Exakt Link — achieving what no existing standard could:

    Accuracy of data
    Accuracy of data transmission is fundamental to any data link as errors lead to inaccuracies in playback. Exakt Link has the ability to losslessly transmit 8 channels of 24-bit 192 kHz Studio Master.

    Exceptionally low jitter
    Jitter has long been the enemy of pitch-accurate digital music reproduction because it impacts on musical timing. Exakt eclipses even our own market-leading DS performance by delivering a level of jitter almost half that of the Klimax DS. This ensures the timing of the music as it reaches your ears is better than ever.

    Extreme precision synchronisation between speakers
    Linn has led the field in high precision multi-room synchronisation through the development of our Songcast protocol. Synchronising speakers in the same room requires even greater precision. Exakt Link delivers digital synchronisation so precise that the variation in timing between speakers has been measured at just 25.4 pico-seconds, the time it takes for sound to travel less than 9 millionths of a millimetre. This extreme precision ensures you hear perfect timing from your speakers.


    As I said, I haven't heard an Exakt system, but technology is offering solutions like described above.

    Will it be the future?
     
  3. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Good question?

    MQA sounded interesting when it was first announced, so far, it doesn't appear that it will be the future, but who knows for sure?

    The digital domain itself has never been an issue. Once a signal is in the digital domain, you can do anything and everything to it, and it will remain the same, except for any intentional processing that you may do to it.

    I was playing with digital gear, from back in the 8-bit digitally sampled keyboard days. The problems in the signal path occurred doing the conversions from analog to digital and converting digital back to analog.

    Exakt may hold a solution, but like MQA, it appears very proprietary and for me, that is a big no-no.
     
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  4. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    I think this is a GREAT idea for any digital source. The signal SHOULD stay digital as long as possible, instead of going through unnecessary analog circuitry.

    But I think there is an assumption above that digital is "better" than analog. So if you can convert to digital you won't lose anything, but if you go through an analog preamp you will lose (in the forms of added "noise and distortion")... and through analog cables lose more... etc. I cannot agree with this. Too many of us have heard that digital processing makes its sonic impact on the sound also. Certainly not noise, but any audible influence is a type of "distortion".

    So in my totally non-technical interpretation:
    1) Analog should stay analog PERIOD. Digital is a VERY complex signal processing event, that cannot possibly have none of its own non-linear distortions. The musical instruments were analog, the microphones were analog, and our speakers and ears are analog. So, there cannot be an uncompromising benefit, subjectively, by adding a ADC and a DAC in the signal path.
    2) Digital should stay digital, but it cannot, because (again) our speakers and our ears are analog. So it must have some analog in our audio path, but as little as possible, please. Yes, for originally digital recordings, let's minimize the quantity of analog, and this IS our future.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
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  5. jcmusic

    jcmusic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Terrytown, La.
    Warren, I agree with for the most part brother but, you would be surprised as to how much better your system can sound when all the delays and phasing are perfect. You can not achieve this using an all analog xover. I happen to be one of those guys who prefers analog, vinyl and reel2reel tapes in a big way. I ran my system for years using only passive xovers and all analog, once I tried the all active system there is simply no going back!!! I have quite a bit of money invested in my vinyl rig and a bunch in my tape gear but, at the end of the day well you know...
     
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  6. jcmusic

    jcmusic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Terrytown, La.
    Well do you really think this to be true? I used ALK xovers in the past until I decided to build my own using much much better parts. The difference between the ALK's and mine were night and day, to put it simply I used air core inductors in place of the iron core ones Al uses, I used a much better autoformer than the cheap one he uses and a better grade of wire and caps...
     
  7. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    Agree the digital source system is extremely logical, using the digital domain as much as possible.

    Digitising vinyl at the earliest opportunity, is extremely ...... controversial, and coming from a company with a proud analogue heritage, possibly makes it seem more so.

    Linn obviously believe that digitising analogue in an Exakt system offers demonstrably better sound quality,

    For some is it simply a (digital) step too far?
     
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  8. Gibsonian

    Gibsonian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa, USA
    I've been triamping now for maybe 16 years and found that I could not beat an all analog system using a digital crossover. Getting time aligned, flatter response, etc using the wonderful tools in the dsp/cross was as neat as could be and I really wanted this to work, but the sound just wasn't there for me.

    I sold the digital crossover, bought a better analog passive and have spent some time and money upgrading it with excellent results. I'm sure digital can be good, better DAC's (need 6 for triamping) better firmware/software, etc may get one there but I think the best results still can be had by keeping analog analog from start to finish in the hifi system.
     
  9. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    I guess in an ideal world where cost, space and complexity are not issues, that no-one would use passive crossovers - active crossovers do not need to offer digital processing.

    In the real world, most of us have to compromise, and the reduced component count and cost of a passive system is a commonly accepted compromise.
     
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  10. Drewan77

    Drewan77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK/USA
    I completely agree with every word of this although I have two opposing examples which are rather at odds, one a close friend, the other an acquaintance:

    1. The close friend is extremely wealthy, lives on the Scottish border & Linn factory personnel visit to set everything for him. He always purchases the highest quality/priced components available, upgrades at will and has two systems of in excess of £250k each, both fully Exakt controlled. I have helped him tweak these on several occasions but his flagship system still sounds poor, partly due to an inappropriate room. The other system in a more appropriate room sounds extremely good although he is kind enough to say that my system remains his reference (the main difference being that my listening position is perfectly time/phase aligned by measurement, his by Linn algorithms based on calculation only, therefore using 'assumptions'. Which, let's be honest is all a passive amp/speaker could do - it can't possibly know what the room shape, layout & furnishings are doing to the 'pure' sound it is given & asked to reproduce. With the best DSP & measurement, that's actually quite easy).

    2. The other guy I mentioned has an all Audio Note system (Warren Jarrett will approve!), valued around £80k and nothing digital in the vinyl replay chain. I have listened to it on two occasions & this is by far the most satisfying all-analogue setup I have ever heard and the only one which I would be prepared to live with. To my ears it is more relaxed and natural sounding than either of the systems I mention above... and at far lower cost (this is not a particularly high end setup by AN standards either).

    My listening tastes are 80/20 vinyl vs digital & I do accept that a pure analogue system would most likely be the best solution if the effects of the room on the speakers can be removed. However, I've been in this hobby since the mid '70s & found this is almost never the case - in my experience the likely negative effect of using DSP is massively outweighed by the positive impact on clarity, coherence and the almost frightening sense of realism that is possible.

    A final comment & back to the main topic of this thread: As I've moved from bi to tri to quad to quint-amping the quality of reproduction has increased exponentially as the individual load on both amp and speaker drivers has reduced. Possible in my case by using very steep crossovers (between 72-300dB slopes) & algorithms maintaining absolute phase coherence.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
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  11. jcmusic

    jcmusic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Terrytown, La.
    I fully agree with this and feel the same way for the most part, the pros out weigh the cons in my opinion!!! Yes my room is measured, treated, and EQed, so everything is about as perfect as you can get it. Also wanted to mention if you cheap out on the DSP you will hear the results in spades, get a good one to start with....
     
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  12. jcmusic

    jcmusic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Terrytown, La.
    Well this was the case for me too, until I tried going active with the proper set up and tools.. Now it is more than a compromise I am willing to accept....
     
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  13. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    If someone has a system like this in southern California, please PM me. I am seriously waiting and wanting to hear a digital system that massively kills any analog system, particularly in its "almost frightening sense of realism."
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
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  14. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    These are extremely interesting comments and probably reflect real life situations.

    Certainly I don't think anyone would suggest that a passive crossover is a good idea in a real world, and I've lived with several all Linn active systems and installed dozens more to appreciate the qualities of a well sorted room.

    In the Audio Note system, if a well designed, all analogue active crossover was used, with additional quality power amps in the same clearly superb system, in the same room, that obviously doesn't compromise the sound, I would still expect a big sonic upgrade.

    In the other instances, however much an optimised system is doing its best, the room and listening position, not surprisingly still negatively influence the sound.
     
  15. jcmusic

    jcmusic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Terrytown, La.
    Warren you keep saying the phrase digital system, to be clear I do have a CD player that rarely gets turned on. On the other hand I do have a DSP but nothing else is digital in my system. So do you consider my system to be a digital system because of the one DSP?
     
  16. House de Kris

    House de Kris VVell-known member

    Location:
    Texas
    Yes, any digitally based component added to an otherwise analog system is enough to jeopardize the pure analog presentation by tainting the intrinsic and unquestioned superiority of the 100% analog sound. I believe some people even think that if the listener has a digital watch on, then the analog magic evaporates .
     
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  17. Gibsonian

    Gibsonian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa, USA
    The DSP takes analog in and coverts it to digital and back out again as analog. So ADA process. So guess it's digital since all signals get converted or they don't come out!
     
  18. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    Yes, the speaker in watches, televisions, tablets, mobiles, phones, and of course hearing aids.

    Your system will theoretically sound better if you seal your ears and anyone elses in the listening room. Of course this does cause a slight problem.....

    Linn did the tune dem with a digital watch when I was having my dealer training in the early 80s. Of course with the reduced jitter and earthing of modern digital watches, the total transformation when removing the watch from the dem room (no wonder the embarrassed digital watch wearing dealer had poor sales), may not be so obvious now.
     
  19. jcmusic

    jcmusic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Terrytown, La.
    True the signals do get converted but, they also get converted back again to analog otherwise we couldn't hear them...
     
  20. jcmusic

    jcmusic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Terrytown, La.
    So you are saying that if someone has a CD player in their system they have a digital system???
     
  21. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    I've always been impressed with the improvements going active. The comparison of a single top of the range power amp, through passive speakers in relation to a cheaper active set up is interesting, and doesn't always end in 100% agreement between different listeners.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
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  22. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    So how long does it take to tweak a system like this? I have this mental picture of endless knobs and dials and someone at the controls never satisfied.

    Thirty years ago I ran a car setup with an active three-way crossover. It sounded great but I was never set on one preset. I was always fiddling. Different volumes equalled different tuning. Now that I am old, that sounds very counterproductive to the goal of simply enjoying music.

    Also, it is funny how some people frame a post to make it sound like anyone who isn't doing the way they are, is compromising. Funny and sad really.
     
  23. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Speaker design and specifically, passive crossover design seems to be somewhat of a lost art form today compared to the mid 70s to the age of active subwoofers and home theatre. Affordable three-way speakers are long gone and replaced by tiny monitors and a sub.
     
  24. Drewan77

    Drewan77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK/USA
    Personally, I don't listen for analogue or digital, I just wanted to achieve the most pleasing & accurate musical reproduction (it also seems to me that Warren is generally curious to listen to a digitally processed system so he has a critical reference).

    In my own situation, digital processing gives the best music quality I've yet heard & is transparent enough that I don't notice any detrimental effect (but I accept that it must be buried there somewhere?). Others lucky enough to have exceptional passive speakers & without any negative impact from the room will no doubt achieve this with an all analogue system. I already mentioned AN speakers and I applaud the fact that these are expressly designed to include likely room effects, incorporating wall reinforcement.
     
  25. Drewan77

    Drewan77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK/USA
    Other DSP users may disagree with me but you seem pretty close to the truth here!

    I spent much of my first year with this (2102) doing largely that as I researched & learned all about anechoic measurement, impulse response, step response, group delay, linear phase, LR & Butterworth crossovers, room correction, parametric eq, acoustics etc etc. Basically I became an amateur speaker designer but it sure was interesting & fun!

    Fortunately DEQX gave me the means to do much of this on-the-fly with actual music playing & eventually I arrived at a sound in my own room that is genuinely perfect for my musical tastes. During this time I was confident (competent?!?) enough to build a succession of increasingly sophisticated open baffle speakers, backed up with integrated subs <50hz. Since that time, I have no further need or desire to tweak anything so in that respect I no longer agree with the quote above.

    [​IMG]

    I have heard DSP described as akin to a modern military aircraft. Computer control takes something that could not fly by conventional means & produces an end result that is far beyond normal aerodynamic rules. In my experience, the best DSP can do something similar but I accept that many people will remain cynical and often times it is poorly implemented.

    mods - this is not meant to be a DSP thread & we are veering away from Tri-amping' Apologies that I am contributing to that (however these speakers are actually tri-amped!).
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
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