Tube amp or tube dac

Lately, I'm toying with the idea of trying the tube sound. I have been a solid state guy ever since, but more due to the circumstances than to my actual preferences. All the characteristics attributed to tube sound - warm, holografic, full, no shrill treble - attract me like no other sound Whatever, due to practical reasons and financial constraints I will go the cheap way and try a used new China tube amp or would you buy a half decent tube dad since 95 % of my listening is done via digital anyway? To be honest I'd like to be able to continue to use my Yamaha receiver since I have grown find of its remote control... Any recommendations for me?

 

Since you are looking at budget devices, look at the tubes that would be available for the device. It's unlikely the stock tubes are going to be to your liking. Know this going in and you will greatly increase your chances of success. I would look at used older tube and not necessarily NOS, to keep the expenses down. Pre-amp tubes used in the pre-amp section of an integrated amp or a DAC should have thousands of hours of life left in them. The tubes in the powering section will cost more and not last as long with used. I would also look at new Russian power tubes over NOS to keep costs down. The issue I would have with a DAC is finding one with a chip set that would be as good as the one in your receiver.

 

I'd say if you really want the "tube sound" -- although in truth I think there's no such thing as a single "tube sound," different tube circuits can deliver very different sounds -- go with a tube amp.

The "tube sound" probably most likely relates to a tube amp circuit, output transformers, power supplies, etc. and how they interact with a speaker load.

Sure you can get a device that slaps a tube into a circuit, sometimes really as an unnecessary appendage not even operating at full voltage and not providing any gain (like all these add-on tube buffers), and maybe that device will be designed to inject even order distortion into the signal to color the sound and sound "tubey." But that's like sticking a cheap guitar stomp box type effect into your hifi chain.

Of course, tube amps are a little challenging in today's environment where most speakers have low impedances in the range where there's the most musical energy, are current hungry, and have impedance curves that vary wildly. Tube amps, with typically much higher output impedances than solid state amps, work very differently into speaker loads than solid state amps. Solid state amps typically deliver more power into lower impedances. Tube amps deliver maximum power into a flat impedance as as the load impedance varies, they produce less power. They also typically have much higher output impedances than solid state amps, so the interaction between the amp and the speaker system may very well shape the frequency response and other aspects of the system in a way that won't be the case with a typical, relatively high power, class AB solid state amp. So match a tube amp to a speaker requires a little care. But that's where you'll get the typical tube experience.

I can't help you with specific recommendations, I'm not really familiar with all the inexpensive new tube amps out there. But what speakers are you using? That will play an important role in what kind of tube amp you'll need.

Of course, cheap, budget tube stuff, often leaves something to be desired, especially in the case of amps, because output transformers are so important to the amp's ability to deliver full clean bandwidth and those are typically the most expensive components in a tube amp and good OTs drive up the cost of tube amps at retail.

If you're just going to buy a DAC that just slaps a tube cathode follower circuit on the output stage as a buffer (a buffer is an amplifier circuit that doesn't amplify, it 1:1 gain, but is typically used to keep one electronic device from loading down another one with its impedance), I say don't bother. You're just adding an unnecessary, noise producing, extra component into the circuit. Sure, maybe it will be designed to kind of work badly as a buffer and color the sound by adding distortion to the signal, but that's not really going to give you "better" hifi.

 

A nice point of entry could be a used PrimaLuna Prologue One with the stock EL34 power tubes. Easy to use, works with almost any speaker and should give you a good idea of what push-pull tube amps do.

Highly recommended. I actually prefer it to higher end PL amps I have used in the past. Those are technically better (more accurate) amps, but the Prologue One offers more life and romance, at least that's what I'm hearing. No remote btw.

 

I just bought a little Cayin A50T used and love it. Tremendous little amp for the cost. I don't think there is much value with a Tube DAC as the only ones I've heard that were worth considering were crazy dollars.

If you need big power, then look at tube preamps and a SS power amp.

 

Yaqin MC-13S is a high quality tube amp at a great price. It has factory built high quality transformers. For best sound replace the 12AX7s with RCA black plate 12AX7 from Brent Jessee in USA. Best price anywhere for new old stock tubes. They ship tubes overseas.

 

IMO if you want tube sound you want tube power amps... i prefer SS pre amp components and tube power amps

 

I think your going about it all wrong, purchase what sounds best to you, put the technology to the side.

 

Seconding the primaluna prologue one if you can find one used. I’ve had mine in my main system for around 5 years now. It’s an awesome little integrated amp with a sweet, lush el34 based sound.

 

I'm trying to get an understanding of your speakers- two pair are 'active' and thus don't require an amp; the third, a Kücke und Schmitz Linea B 55, looks like a three way large bookshelf type with a port. How efficient are they (1 watt =__ db at 1 meter or whatever the DIN norm is for measurement)?
The amp question usually is very closely tied to the speaker and their relationship to each other. A good tube amp won't sound "tubey" unless you are after an older tube sound.
You are in Germany, so some of the American products, unless they are imported into Germany (without tariff) might not make sense.
I understand what you are trying to achieve, but you can probably achieve that using high quality separates, whether tube or solid state (I'm a tube guy from phono through line stage through amps and have been that way in my main system since the early 1970's, so nothing against tubes).
What kind of used market for high quality amplifiers do you have access to?
Do you have audiophile friends that are willing to let you try one or more amps in your system?
What are you going to use for a preamp?
I only recently started using digital in my main system, and the DAC has a tube, but not in the audio circuit- it is in the power supply. It still makes a difference in sound when the tube is switched in (you can run the DAC without turning on the tube).
I don't think you can achieve the kind of 'holographic midrange' you seek simply by the insertion of a cheap tube component. You will change the sound though.

 

I switch speakers and other components continually. It's part of the fun. And now I want to try something new, tubes. That's all. I know that I won't find sound paradise with a cheapo second hand tube amp, but I want to try tube amplification to test if I hear a relevant difference.

 

Ok, so somebody on another forum said he bought this thing for 32 bucks via Amazon: FX Audio 01
stuck some NOS tubes in it, did a DIY linear power supply and it adds some magic.
It's not a big investment for a tube buffer, and the tubes could probably be resold if it sucked.
That's all I got.

 

Tube DACs can indeed sound pleasant. However, the purist inside of me has problems with any design in which the tubes don't replace solid state devices, but merely buffer the outputs to add color after the SS op-amps have already done their damage to the sound.

Some tube DACs like Audio Note's entire line, do not add any SS devices to the signal path, so these appeal to me from a purist perspective. Unfortunately audio note's DACs are limited to CD resolution, which is a deal killer for me. Consequently I run a DAC which contains neither any SS nor any tube devices in its analog output stage, but instead just uses output transformers and a few passive components.

I am a 100% tube guy from end to end in my system. But I have run many configurations over the years from all SS to all tube. And I would personally recommend considering starting your tube journey with a tube preamp and a SS amp rather than going all-in on tubes all at once. Tube power amps can be finicky and unreliable devices, and I wouldn't want for you to have a bad experience with your very first piece of tube gear.

 

@TarnishedEars
Despite my post advocating tube power amps above you make a good point... ive just spent 2k having my cyber 800 monos rebuilt

 

I like to try new things too but I try and move up in sound quality at the same time, I may not have your audio budget

 

Real tube sound requires a tube amp. The tube/SS hybrid amps don't have it. Tube DACs and buffers can soften the sound a bit and/or add a bit of dimension, but paired with a SS amp won't provide anything close to what you'd get with a tube integrated.

You don't have to spend a small fortune. A pre-owned Cayin can be had for about $1K (some models even less) and they're built like tanks - better than some American brands. If you prefer new in that price range, Yaqin seems to be the top brand. They've received a lot of praise from independent and amateur reviewers.

I recommend you also keep used Melody and Mystere amps on your radar.

 

My budget is very limited, so everything is used, but normally I resell at a good price, to be able to buy better equipment. I started with a very modest setup but the speakers and the receiver I own at the moment are quite good. Problem is, I'm never satisfied. .. I can't get no, audio satisfaction. But I try and try and I try..

 

Thank you! That's helpful.

 

Not sure if you are into headphones, but the Bravo Audio V2 is pretty good for the cost. I upgraded the 12AU7 with an RCA blackplate and it sounds even better. There are also mods out there than add to the performace as well. If you ever wanted to?

 

Amp

 

tube amp for sure. a lot of tube buffers in DAC's are just that, buffers. kind of like hooking up a tube driven pedal to a solid state guitar rig imho...

the above quoted post is why i got a tube amp that runs EL34's and 12AX7 and 12AU7 tubes. All those are common tubes that are still affordable. There are still deals to be had for sure on NOS pre-amp tubes. I have a few sets now that i used for tube rolling until i found the combination i liked and now the other tubes are around for back-up. New EL34 tubes are plentiful and the hard blue svetlana's i use you can get at guitar center or on-line way cheaper than a lot of the esoteric tubes a lot of amps use these days...

happy hunting!

 

Since you are changing speakers a lot I would go for a tube preamp and solid state power amp. You will get the "tube sound" and not penalty of limitation on which speakers you can drive.

 

Sorry for resurrecting this thread but I'm curious if these observations might apply to the Sonic Frontiers SFCD-1 tube cd player, too? I'm not a tech savvy hence my inquiry. Stereophile says in its review about the SFCD-1: "The SFCD-1 is balanced in the analog domain, not fully balanced by using two DACs per channel. The DAC is followed by a passive RLC filter and a tubed output stage using a Sovtek 6922 dual-triode for each channel. Each half of the 6922 amplifies one phase of the balanced output signal. The left- and right-channel single-ended outputs that appear on the RCA jacks are therefore driven by only half of the 6922."

The whole review can be read here: Sonic Frontiers SFCD-1 CD player

 

I don't think so. The Sonic Frontiers DACs use a boatload of tubes. So my assumption is that they were not cheating by using an Op-Amp combined with a redundant tube buffer as have so many.

 

Thanks for the reply. This unit of mine has two tubes per se. The SFCD-1 is an old acquisition of mine and since then I have been learning more how to render properly a tube DAC (A'la PrimaLuna Evo dac) and I saw that the SFCD-1 has the tubes at the output stage.