Tube experts, help! What's the real difference between a TELEFUNKEN E88CC and a ECC88?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Steve Hoffman, Sep 24, 2013.

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  1. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Telefunken E88CC Gold Pin vs. Telefunken ECC88. Both rare and expensive these days.

    The difference? Is it construction? Testing? Different elements? Do they sound different? Do they perform differently? What was the purpose of the two variants originally?

    I'm helping a friend with a sick Convergent Audio Technologies SL1 "Ultimate" preamplifier and I need input.

    Each site on the web has a different story on these. Which sounds better? Which is better for a linestage, which for a phono stage?

    Thanks for all of your help.

    Kevin Deal/Upscale Audio photo: telefunken6922__18986_1307728834_1280_1280.jpg
     
  2. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    What's the Deal? Can't the tube guru supply the answer? While I don't claim to be a vintage tube expert, my experience has shown that the difference is often just semantics, in short they can be pretty much the same. That said, there are also subtle differences in tubes of the same type and even mfr, which are due to what is known in the industry as "running changes" and yet there are often no changes in product description. In the example which you supplied, I would venture to guess that the order of the ECC and the 88 simply signifies which version has gold plated pins and which does not, unless both types show up with gold pins. In that case, I'd also want to do some research (like I'd ever buy "NOS" Tele tubes...) to see what was actually sold and to whom back in the day as there are plenty of counterfeits now. Probably more counterfeit than real NOS. I'd soon trust used tubes. My thinking here is that there may or may have not been any internal differences but that the gold pin versions would have come at a premium cost from the supplier and so were labeled slightly differently to help the seller keep track of them and not sell them for the same price as the standard versions and so lose money on them.

    As for one tube sounding better than another, that can be subjective and due to actual physical differences beyond gold pins. As you know, there are many versions of a 6DJ8, and they can all sound different, even different batches from the same label. I say label, as not all tubes labeled as one brand were made in the same factory. It's a crap shoot and a game of trust and of deceit. Personally, I'd spend less on known, good, new tubes rather than wander aimlessly through NOS/counterfeit land. The new Gold Lion tubes have very good sound and reliability and a warranty, plus are more affordable and are way less cloaked in secrecy and drama. Thy sell for around $45.
    [​IMG]
    -Bill
     
    Mark66 likes this.
  3. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    I'd go with what ever Kevin Deal says. If he says it will sound/work better then it will.

    The Golden Lions works, they are my #2 choice for a 12AX7. I prefer CV4004's as they give me the mid warmth that these old ears crave.

    If you don't want to talk to Uncle Kevin then these guys LINK are the next best another link to info on the site. And another link to some additional on the same site. These guys ship fast and are no BS. FYI, I posted the links so that you could get to the facts quickly without searching through the whole site.

    M~
     
  4. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Let me note that we have the tubes already! 4 of each, NOS.
     
  5. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    Ha! Well then, enlighten us after you listen to both! :laugh:
    -Bill
     
  6. BigE

    BigE Forum Resident

    You didn't like the answer you got on Facebook?
     
  7. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

  8. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    I don't have time! Wish I did. Could be relaxing fun but I need input from people who have used both..

    Don't think there are too many out there.
     
  9. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    I shot an email to Brendan Biever at Tubeworld, from whom I've bought a number of NOS tubes over the years. Here's what Brendan said:

    ECC88 Telefunken will have a warmer sound, more relaxed on top, E88CC will have more detail, more presence and more extension, longer life, lower noise floor

    I mainly sell 6922 for mics if that is required, not ECC88

    best to see technical data and compare each, their is much info on the net on both, go to these links and see the other links for more info

    http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/show.php?des=ECC88

    all 6DJ8 have nickel pins, typcially they are run at lower plate voltages and on average have a shorter lifespan

    most 6DJ8 have a warmer, richer sound compared to 6922 which tend to have more resolution and be a little more analytical and have more extension in the highs

    http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/show.php?des=6922

    the best 6922 have gold-plated pins, a little more linear sound from bottom to top.
    *****************************************************************************
     
    hi_watt likes this.
  10. reb

    reb Money Beats Soul

    Location:
    Long Island
    Well, even though they both were made by Telefunken W. Germany. The two tubes you ask about sound quite different.
    Tele 6922's are know to be highly resolving, leaning towards the clean clear analytical sound. While Tele 6DJ8's have a bloom in the midbass with less resolution.

    6922's were developed as a premium low noise version for military equipment and laboratory test equipment with long life and factory matched sections.

    6DJ8's are high production low cost tubes used in the front end amplification section of television tuners.
     
  11. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    Looks like others chimed in while I was typing a novel. :doh:

    E88CC = 6922
    ECC88 = 6DJ8

    ECC88/6DJ8 is the starting point in the family - it's a Philips of Holland design. Most all the Philips factory production are fine quality tubes. Philips Holland/Mullard/Amperex and other affiliated Philips factory tubes are recognizable by their etched datecodes, as well as "X" shaped seams across the top of the glass). The 6DJ8 is a good tube, it's not as long lived as the industrial grade 6922 and 7308. Sections are usually pretty close, you have to work harder to find extra tight section matching - you can find them like that, but it takes patience. The Telefunken version is a pricey devil, and not so common in the U.S. You'll most likely find Sylvania and Amperex 6DJ8s in the wild in the States.

    E88CC/6922 is the next member up in the 6DJ8 family. Tighter section matching, lower noise, lower microphonics, higher ratings for lifespan, designed for tougher/rougher demands of industrial equipment (government/military and manufacturers like Tektronix and HP bought these for critical areas in test equipment). Can sometimes be found with plain pins, more likely than not gold plated, I see gold plated on the Philips family versions. Those Tele versions are very nice, I could easily live with a set of those in my buffer stage. :wave: Sylvania was the other big manufacturer of 6922s - I don't care for those as much as the Amperex/Philips versions, ymmv. They are less expensive, and were produced up until the late 80s for the government. Most bigger tube vendors will have these in stock.

    7308 is top dog in the 6DJ8 group. Tightest section matching lowest noise, long lived (6922 and 7308 are 10,000 hour rated tubes). I have a pair of Amperex in my buffer stage - they run, and run, run. My favorite version so far, never had a chance to hear the Telefunken version. Sylvania's version has plain pins, just about every 7308 besides these have gold plated pins.

    As noted above, different tubes work in gear in sometimes odd ways - what I say rocks out might not be a good match for your preamp. I've had good luck with Philips made by Amperex in the U.S.; Telefunken has a great reputation as far as quality goes. You might want to test drive the preamp with some inexpensive (in relative terms) 6922s like the late production Philips (former Sylvania plant in U.S.). I'd hate for you to guinea pig with expensive Teles and find out something wasn't quite right with the gear yet.
     
    Bill Hart likes this.
  12. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    I think that's consistent with what my guy Brendan said. I always thought the military version was the CCa. I'm personally still not clear on the technical difference between the 'CC' in the prefix and the 'CC' in the suffix.
    I used to use the military grade ones in my Steelhead phono head. I can compare those to other equivalents from different brands, e.g. Siemens and Mullard, but I don't really know the difference between the two Tele models our host identified. I asked Brendan (my guy) for further clarification on that.....
    Best,
     
  13. reb

    reb Money Beats Soul

    Location:
    Long Island
    CCa is a hand selected premium super low noise version of E88CC for use in long distance tele -communications used by the German post office.
     
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  14. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    CCa is very hard to find - best to get those from a dealer like Brent Jessee or Kevin Deal, be prepared to shell out big $$$. The rarest of the bunch appears to be some goofy looking Amperex 6922s with a "pinched waist" - I've seen pairs of those with enormous price tags.
     
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  15. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    You are right, though, even the CC was pricey the last time I bought a pair. I really liked the sound of the Teles in the Steelhead (which I have since sold) : in that circuit, they weren't as 'tubey' sounding but had a holographic quality; I tried some very fancy Siemens NOS at one point, but in that circuit, in my system, they didn't have the 3d quality of the Tele.
     
  16. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    Same goes for me with the Amperex 7308 - it just sounds the best in my buffer - not zingy highs, the midrange is balanced, the bass isn't bloated or slowed down.
     
  17. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    I agree with the poster that thinks that the Genalex Gold Lion reissues are a very good sounding new production tube.
     
  18. Eric Lemberg

    Eric Lemberg New Member

    Hi Steve,
    I'm fortunate enough to have the Telefunken ECC88 and the E88CC / 6922. In my opinion both are exquisite in their sound. However my favorite is the ECC88. The biggest difference is greater soundstage depth when compared to the 6922. To describe its characteristics, I would have to say ECC88 is so very natural and smooth sounding without loosing detail in the warmth. When listening to them in my Fosgate Phono I feel closer to the event than with any other tube in that position. The ECC88 is the most natural sounding tube in the 6922 position I have ever heard. Both are stunning and I use the gold pin 6922 from Upscale Audio in my Conrad Johnson ET250S amplifier with excellent results for its great bass, dynamics and warmer sound through the mid treble in that amplifier.
    Eric
     
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  19. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Just wanted to mention that my Audio Note UK DAC has a pair of Telefunken NOS ECC88's in there, the best sounding of all the NOS versions of the 6DJ8/6922 I tried.
     
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  20. jcmusic

    jcmusic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Terrytown, La.
    Then try a 7308 from Telefunken or the Amperex Gold Pins Military version 7308, nothing can touch them!!!
     
  21. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Not lively enough, buddy. I have 8 NOS. They worked in my Marantz 9's/Tannoys but not in this situation..
     
    crooner likes this.
  22. jcmusic

    jcmusic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Terrytown, La.
    Well in your case it can be different it all is system Dependant. In my case nothing can touch the tubes I mentioned.
     
  23. utahusker

    utahusker Senior Member

    Yeah, I'm thinking you wouldn't want lively with Khorns.
     
  24. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    That explains that. Funny, the guy neglected to mention that factoid.
     
  25. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Reopened by special request.
     
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