Turntable upgrade choices $600 range and under...

I am mostly considering buying new although I have looked at ebay a bit.

There is currently a Rega P3 with Grace 704 arm that looks pretty good. I am thinking the original RB300 arm that came with the P3 was/is the better arm. Is that right? It is currently at $300 bid. Is this a good table/arm if I can get if for under $400 or should I look at the new ones below?

So unless a great looking (and safe buy) table shows up on ebay pretty soon, I am looking mainly at the following new tables.

Nad 533- Has the RB250 arm (close anyway) sells for about $500 but the cart may not be the best (may need replacing).

Goldring GR-1- This table can be had a little cheaper than the Nad. Has similar arm, Goldring Electra cart. Sells for $400 but the cart may need upgrading out of the box.

Sota Moonbeam- This table looks to be well made. The arm may be its weakness. Same price range as Nad. I don't think it comes with a cart.

Music Hall MMF5-This has been my original choice but I keep thinking I can do better for the money. I am not sure that is the case though. The arm seems to be the weak link. Nice table though.

Rega P2- $450 without cart. I could probably put about $150 cart on this. Is this the best choice for a $600 investment?

All of these tables seems to have different strengths/weakness so that makes the choice difficult. And while the P2 may seem the obvious choice, the sound doesn't allways seem to get positive reviews.

I am just trying to balance my spending for the best overall package.

I currently use a Technics BD22/Shure V15mrp cart with a Creek OBH-8 phono stage and Aragon Soundstage pre.

 

Chuck, I have never used any of these TT's, however, I think from the threads I have read the MMF5 is the most popular among the members. Prix has sold MMF's to other members and may be able to get you a good price. PM him about it.

 

I would keep a close eye on Audiogon.com - a Rega P3 with RB300 cart and phono stage went for $600 recently

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1095543590

and a P3 with RB300 for $395

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1097696807

There is a school of thought that an RB250 arm has advantages over the RB300.

All the best - Andrew

 

Or you can get a decent DJ turntable suitable for home use for about $200 such as the Gemini XL-200 (the model I have). They do last quite a long time and do sound excellent. For a cartridge, I use a Stanton 680ELII.

 

I currently am using the Goldring GR1. Like the NAD 533, it is based on the Rega Planar design, it's a good sounding deck but i have had speed stability issues with it and previously with a Rega P2 also.
The belt generally seems to be the cause of this, in my case at least, but it should be noted that these were both brand new decks.

I am hoping to get a Technics SL1200 MkII soon.

 

That is the kind of feedback I am looking for Dave, thanks.

So neither the GR1 or P2 have an easily adjustable speed control. I'd be pretty ticked off if I spent $400-$700 only to have speed stability issues.

Does the MMF5 have this kind of issue?

 

Chuck, All belt driven TT's in this price range use syncrhonous motors that get their speed stability from the freqency on the electrical signal coming into your house. This is actually very stable (the line voltage may vary quite a bit but the frequency is pretty constant). So if a belt driven TT has speed problems it is usually do to one of 4 things listed in order of increasing likeky hood:
1. The platter bearing has developed so much friction that the belt drive system cannot overcome it. (low probability)
2. The motor itself is going bad (still low probability)
3. The pulleys that attach to the motor shaft or platter have started to slip. Depending on how they are attached this could be a higher probability.
4. The belt is worn or has become slippery and is not gripping to the pulleys (highest probability)

Belts are cheap and easy to replace. The VPI TNT-HR that is have is priced more than 10 times your price range. VPI reccomends that every three months I put a little talc on the belts so they maintain their grip. It costs pennies and works like a charm.

 

ALP, how do you explain Dave's problems? It sounds like he had 2 new tables with speed stability issues. It would not seem that any of the 4 things listed should have been an issue.

Dave, what year where those tables you tried? I've been told that the Rega motors have been improved over the last few years and that problem has been rectified.

 

Chuck, It depends on what Dave means by speed issues, I will need more information from Dave.

 

Well, Michael Fremer claims the P3 runs 1% fast. I've heard that elsewhere as well. He said he believes it is intentional on the part of Rega, rather than an anomoly. But if the speed seems too fast for you, you can use a broccoli rubber band or tape to make the spindle a bit thicker. You can't see it when it is re-assembled and it is free. So if that is all that bothers you about the Regas, it shouldn't be much of an issue.

There may be other reasons you would choose another turntable rather than a Rega, such as the lack of adjustments, etc. But there are also workarounds for many of these issues as well. I would say my P3 has been very reliable and feels very well made. There are so few things that could possibly go wrong with it. And I would personally not shy away from a P2 either. But if I were shopping in a different price bracket, over $700, then I would check out some VPI stuff or explore some other options.

 

Folks, Let's be careful what we mean here. What Ian just described is a speed inaccuracy. The TT runs fast or slow, but it is the same all the time. Ian is right this can be corrected by a number of means. To me a speed stability issue is when the speed of the TT changes as it is playing (other than the very slight change with warm up, even VPI says run the TT for an hour if you are going to due critical listening). A speed stability issue is much more serious than a minor speed inaccuracy.

 

It would be my pleasure. You may be surprised at the amount of money I will save you. FYI, in addition to the Music Hall units, I sell the Goldring table as well.

All of these tables...the NAD, the Goldring, the Music Hall, Project, etc are made in the same factory. The Music Hall tables represent the best value per dollar and they come with the best cartridges of the bunch. That Rega w/ Grace 707 tonearm on ebay could be a winner. I love the Grace 707 and I've been looking for a couple for my tables. The advanatage to the Grace tonearm is it will be a hell of a lot easier to setup and operate than those Rega arms. I'm not a big Rega fan, but that's just me personally. I know a lot of other forum members swear by them. Be careful when buying tables on ebay. It takes a rare individual to know the proper way to ship these units to avoid damage.

 

You sure that this isn't a Rega Planar 3 with the Grace tonearm? Rega turntables have come with the Rega tonearms (RB300 or RB250) for nigh on 20 years, so seeing one with a Grace tonearm suggests that the turntable could be in excess of 20 years old. I would avoid this.

I'm a fan of the Rega and Project turntables at affordable prices (I know nothing about the Music Hall turntables, as they're not available outside of North America, except that they are built on Project parts).

The Project Debut II is an excellent afforable turntable, while the model up, the Project X1 Xpression, has a remarkable carbon fibre tonearm and has received some absolute rave reviews from the UK press. One of my writers has one for review currently and has even tried his Koetsu on it!

The Rega P2 and P3 turntables are always good options, seem to run forever and have easily replaceable (and easily sourced) belts.

 

To clear up, my issues were with pitch/speed instability, slightly fast/slow but consistent speed would not be a problem for me.

The Rega P2 was actually the worst case, bought it last year, so it is the fixed motor mount type. Very bad pitch wobble caused by the belt riding up/down on the hub, i had to buy a new one from the dealer. This fixed it, but as i said this should not be an issue IMO with a new deck.

With the Goldring GR1 it was the same thing. I again bought a new genuine Rega belt which ran steady on the hub but checking it with a strobe, it still had a speed variation. I got a replacement deck from the dealer, the belt is ok on this one but again a strobe check shows a speed variation.

Now, the degree to which this becomes audible will depend. Generally it seems ok, but with any off-centre pressings, pitch instability will become more apparent than it would, with a deck that keeps a steady solid speed.

Incidentally, i had pulled my old Dual CS505 from the cupboard, put the strobe on it.....dead steady!.

I have seen posts on AudioAsylum where people will say quite strongly, that Regas DO NOT have speed instability, though they might conceed that they run a bit fast. Try doing a search at VinylAsylum, under Rega & speed or similar.

The Technics SL1200/1210 MKII has rock solid pitch, so i won't be wondering, is it the deck, the record, my imagination etc. .

 

I agree, Tetrack. IMO, there is no reason to spend money on a new table when you can get something vintage that is just as good...if not better. For someone who makes part of his living selling new tables, this is a bold statement. The only problem with a vintage table is that they often require servicing and tweaking that many of us are uncomfortable with.

 

Dave, When you say speed instability, do you mean a slight oscillation on the strobe disk. If so this is not an instability, simply an indication that you are not a the exact 33,3333....rpm.

 

On the strobe, the lines move clockwise then stop, a continual move/stop motion, not a flowing one, so showing an altering speed.

I found a couple of reviews from HI-Fi Choice magazine, one for a Moth Kanoot(using Rega hub/round belt) & a Planar 3. The reviewer comments on the same riding belt issue with the Moth..........

Moth
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/archive/perl/229_printreview.htm
Rega
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/archive/perl/225_printreview.htm

 

Correction. My mistake, the Moth does not use the same belt/sub-platter coupling, but does confirm a riding belt introduces instability.

 

Dave, I have to say that I am shocked by your experience with the Rega's and the belt riding up and down. On my VPI the belts are self leveling (i.e. if I displace them on purpose on the pulley they go back to level in a revolution on their own). The only two things I can suggest is either the whole TT is way off level ( ) or the pulleys are very poorly made.

 

Thanks for all of the feedback. Although I ordered a Rega P2 with a Goldring 1022 cart yesterday for $615, the cart was not in stock so I have maybe until Wednesday to cancel the order. Seems the more I research the more my head hurts.

Prix, I wanted the MMF5 at first but I was swayed by the RB250 arm and the option to put on the cart of choice. Can you PM me and let me know what you could sell the MMF5 to me for? The place I checked was pushing the MMF5 but I was convined at the time the arm on the P2 with a Goldring 1022 cart would outperform the MMF for about $100 more.

I don't want to add a $100 speed control box OR a incogneto rewire kit OR a platter upgrade OR.....well, you get the picture. I just want a very good simple to operate TT that won't drive me crazy and will keep me happy for years and that has no issues out of the box.

Maybe my Technics BD22 IS all I really needed after all. LOL

 

In the case of the Rega P2, the belt was the cause. After i fitted the replacement one it was fine on the strobe IIRC. I still have the original belt from the P2, fitting it to my Goldring, it is the same.
IMO Rega need to improve their QC.