Ultimate HQCD (UHQCD) - new CD format, King Crimson on UHQCD and more

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by toilet_doctor, Aug 10, 2016.

  1. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor "Rockin' chair's got me" Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    When it comes to expensive collectables, there is nothing off-topic to suggest something good at the regular retail price, available only now.
    For me it was always the U.K. 1st and 'Danger Money' is a double album.
    When I'll buy a real MQA-CD player, I might deeply regret not buying the U.K. MQA UHQCD version, which can be the best digital version in physical format.
    But please, between you and me, I have a very tiny hope that someday Uni will release the Mini LP MQA UHQCD version.
     
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  2. Kopczas

    Kopczas No nonsense audiophile

    Location:
    Warsaw
    I hope for ECM`s SACDs reissues..
     
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  3. It may be the best digital version in physical format as far as a redbook disc as MQA UHQCD is theoretically redbook, but there is no way given the amazing esoteric SACD player you own (with same 2014 DSD mastering in comparison) that the MQA UHQCD will beat SHM SACD. As much as I love the SQ on the titles with new mastering in the MQA series, imho it’s still a step backwards in SQ even with proper decoding of MQA versus SHM SACD.
     
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  4. gjuro76

    gjuro76 Forum Resident

    Hello and thank to all your's great info on UHQCD/MQA on SHF.

    Could someone help me, I'm interested in buying The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery.

    I have two options; UHQCD/MQA or SHM from 2016.

    Is it the same mastering, which one should I get?

    Thanx for help in advance!
     
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  5. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor "Rockin' chair's got me" Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    I see you missed my post:

    Professional reviewer tested MQA-CD against SACD with the same mastering, and he said:
    "I'm simply describing what I heard when I played these various songs in the formats listed. And by the way, I'm not really a big fan of MQA. I've heard it sound great, and not so great. In the case of these two physical CD's, I thought MQA sounded fantastic."
    "When I pushed play, I immediately heard an expansiveness in the overall presentation. It simply sounded big... As you might expect from such a high resolution recording, the clarity was magnificent. Frequency range was also spot on - that is, the bass line could be easily followed and the mids and highs sounded very accurate.
    As to the SACD disc, I must admit, it was a very close second, but indeed a second to the MQA format. The overall width of the presentation was not quite as wide... Make no mistake, the differences I noticed were very slight and were I not looking for any differences, with the exception of the sonic width, I might not have noticed much of a difference at all. From a frequency range, clarity, definition and accuracy standpoint, the SACD disc was almost on par with the MQA disc.
    " (Paul Wilson, Audiophile Review, February 15, 2019)
    toilet_doctor, Jul 16, 2020 #2089

    I also bought a pair of CD that he compared:
    Chlara Evo Sessions MQA-CD for $15 and SACD version for $21 at importcds for comparison:
    [​IMG]

    Shvartze Shabbos, what do you think:
    If just a regular plastic MQA-CD outperformed Hybrid SACD of the same mastering,
    would it be possible that MQA UHQCD outperformed SHM-SACD?

    I don't have an Esoteric other than the Cary Audio 360 Pro, but that's not the point.
    When it comes to different players, the outcome can be unfair. That's why I want to wait for the new Luxman model with SACD / MQA-CD playback, somewhere in between their top D-10X and D-3X (let's see). Comparison, using the same player would give the most accurate result.
    If you upgrade your SACD playback to the new Technics SL-G700 SACD / MQA-CD player then MQA-UHQCD beat SHM-SACD in your system.
    The point is that MQA is a step forward in SQ if it sounds better than the original master due to the elimination of equipment distortion:

    I'm going to repeat that last thought: the Grammy-nominated recording engineer says that the 1.4Mbs MQA file sounds better than the original 352kHz/32-bit master.
    That's a result of removing the distortion of the A/D converter
    ." -- Robert Harley

    Please read this old post:
    toilet_doctor, Aug 18, 2016 #226
     
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  6. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor "Rockin' chair's got me" Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    (translation)
    The Incredible Jazz Guitar [MQA/UHQCD] [Limited Pressing] / Wes Montgomery
    “[High-resolution CD masterpiece series] MQA-CD x UHQCD = High-quality disc that allows you to listen to high-resolution. This is the final evolution of the CD! A super-master board that remains in the history of jazz guitar that emerged from Indianapolis and determined the evaluation of the late genius rookie Wes. Introducing a truly amazing (incredible) technique, such as his favorite octave playing method. ● Converted 2003 DSD master based on US original analog tape to 352.8kHz/24bit (high resolution undelivered sound source) ● Green color label coat ● Slim case obi <personnel> Wes Montgomery (g), Tommy -Flanagan (p), Percy Heath (b), Albert Heath (ds) Recorded at Reeves Sound Studios, New York, January 26, 28, 1960 .”

    There are a lot of good sounding jazz titles in this series, but not this one.
    There are no comments on this release, but…
    This is the same 2003 DSD mastering from original master tape as for 2011 and 2014 SHM-SACD releases:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Our member, zappaien, said:

    I got this one some weeks ago.
    For me, the best version I got to hear, but:
    Sound is not fantastic beside of the RB CD version, but a lot more analog, vinyl shouldn't be so far from this sound.

    There's still those little problem of 'noise', breath or something, should come from recording sessions.
    When you play it loud you hear a lot of noise/breath (no noise reduction on the recording maybe?)
    Separation between instruments is regular. Guitar sound is good (not muted like my RB CD).

    It's Written: 2003 DSD from Concord Music Group
    If you like this album very much, you can go for it. But far away from best shm-sacd release in my mind.”
    Hope it helps

    zappaien, Mar 8, 2011 #2, #5

    Why is it 2003 mastering?

    The master tape is lost for this great album. Steve said once that the only tape is actually a needle drop from a metal mother.”
    John DeAngelis, Mar 8, 2011 #6


    [​IMG]

    (translation)
    The Incredible Jazz Guitar [SHM-CD] / Wes Montgomery
    “[Jazz Department Store" Campaign [Riverside]] The ultimate new catalog series "Jazz Department Store" delivered by Universal Music, a treasure trove of jazz labels. Each label has a series of selected masterpieces! A revolutionary jazz and guitar demonstrator who has demonstrated his abilities. Groovy showcased the representative song "Fore on Six". New liner notes. Recorded in New York on January 26, 28, 1960. <Personnel> Wes Montgomery (g), Tommy Flanagan (p), Percy Heath (b), Albert Heath (ds).”

    I don’t believe in a good sound of this one, because I have more than dozen from this series – they all are old mastering without credit notes at all.

    Conclusion
    Don’t buy these CDs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  7. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor "Rockin' chair's got me" Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Solution

    No. 1

    The Incredible Jazz Guitar Of Wes Montgomery + 2 Mini LP CD w/OBI State of Art, Spain 2017 8436569190524

    "CD comes in mini LP style gate-fold jacket release with obi-strip (on which is printed the tracklist) including an inner paper sleeve. "Limited Edition. 24-bit remastered" sticker on the shrink wrap.
    "The Incredible Jazz Guitar Of Wes Montgomery" recorded in New York on January 26 (tracks 1, 2, 4 and 5) & January 28 (tracks 3, 6, 7 and 8), 1960.
    Bonus tracks recorded in San Francisco, Fall 1960 (track 9) & May 18, 1960 (track 10)."

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Buy this damn CD now, regardless of anything.
    This is 2017 24-bit mastering from a very good copy of OMT.
    I don't have it, but I do have a lot of State of Art, Spain Mini LP CDs – they all sound very good at least.

    It is a Limited Edition. I found only 2 copies: on eBay and at amazon.com for $16.51 (one copy left). There is nothing at amazon UK. Buy or die.

    WES MONTGOMERY THE INCREDIBLE JAZZ GUITAR OF REMASTERED 24-BIT CD + BONUS [NEW] | eBay

    No. 2

    [​IMG]

    This is 2008 24-bit remaster from Keepnews Collection, which people like.
    Japanese version (2800 yen) is unavailable, but many others:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Kopczas

    Kopczas No nonsense audiophile

    Location:
    Warsaw
    We`ll see in 2 to 3 weeks ;)
     
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  9. gjuro76

    gjuro76 Forum Resident

    Thank you very much toilet_doctor! I should probably go with Europe version of Keepnews Collection (i have few cds in that collectiom and they sound great to almost great! ) and save some money...

    Keep doin' good work...
     
  10. gjuro76

    gjuro76 Forum Resident

    Just to notice, almost all jazz UHQCD (those without MQA), are no longer availabe on cdjapan. We must be very fast when buying those...
     

  11. Nice catch Doctor! I just purchased from Amazon for $16 strictly for the bonus tracks. I have the Riverside SACD (still reasonably priced on Discogs) and love it.

    https://www.amazon.com/Incredible-Jazz-Guitar-WES-MONTGOMERY/dp/B06ZXS9HH9

    Wes Montgomery - The Incredible Jazz Guitar Of Wes Montgomery

    [​IMG]

    Nice review of the SACD vs LP (SACD takes this one)

    LP vs. SACD Shootout: Wes Montgomery's 2nd Album
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  12. gjuro76

    gjuro76 Forum Resident

    I found the way how to get to State of Art, Spain Mini LP CDs. Could U, toilet_doctor, tell me some of those spanish label cd titles that u like so much. U can sent me private massage, we do not want to spam this great topic...

    Thnx!
     
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  13. testikoff

    testikoff Seasoned n00b

    Actually, what I was trying to say is: when the same DSD master is used for a CD transfer, the HR Cutting version on SHM-CD appears to be more faithful to the DSD source than MQA-CD version. MQA-CD may sound a tad different from both DSD master (which is sometimes available on SHM-SACD) & SHM-CD, but small differences are mostly due to Bob Stuart's patented slow-rolloff minimal-phase filtering (which anyone can apply him/herself, if so desires) + MQA-CD fakery...
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  14. Kopczas

    Kopczas No nonsense audiophile

    Location:
    Warsaw
    How about this one:


    Mahler second under Zubin Mehta, recording from 1979.

    [​IMG]

    Cat no. UCCD-40014

    Comparing to SHM-SACD UCGD-9505

    For MQA-CD transfer to DSD master has been done in 2012, for SACD in 2011.
    Any experiences with these releases?
     
  15. Kopczas

    Kopczas No nonsense audiophile

    Location:
    Warsaw
    You mean for all SHM-CDs, even latest UICY-25546 SHM -CD, there`s nowhere HR Cutting mentioned on this one.
     
  16. testikoff

    testikoff Seasoned n00b

    I believe it is just a reissue of 2014 Pt/non-Pt SHM-CD (UICY-40087/UICY-76577), so all the mastering notes for those 2 would apply here as well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  17. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor "Rockin' chair's got me" Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    A few words on this matter:

    Not all new UHQCD or MQA UHQCD releases sound good - the master tape was over dry, damaged or lost, and the search for a better sound leads us to alternative releases made from copies of OMT by public domain companies.
    (Speaking of Spanish labels, my experience here is only limited to vocal jazz titles).
    First of all, I want to point out that over the last decade they have improved SQ significantly.
    The main thing is that the guys from Spain are very passionate about jazz and care about sound, they have invested in new equipment that can squeeze out of a good copy tape much more than a major label could have done 17-20 years ago with their first 24-bit remastering using original master. This is also indicated by the new releases of the recently appeared Spanish labels: Crackerjack Records, Jazz Images and State of Art.

    I just listened a little randomly from each album and I noticed sonic aspects that are common for all of them, but one.
    What struck me from the first note was the openness and airiness of the sound – mono recordings sounded like stereo.
    Second, excellent dynamics and clarity for all samples I took.
    And third, good balance with smooth well-presented bass.
    It felt like they very meticulously used Flat Transfer – add some fancy materials and you get Japanese releases.

    Another common thing on most of them was on the downside – the brightness of the vocals to a different degree, sometimes more, sometimes less.
    Doesn't that remind us of many titles of the Japanese project?
    Maybe it's not SHM that adds brightness, but flat transfer does… (?)

    As always, SQ depends on the quality of the recording and will vary.
    2003 ‘The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery’ was not very good; 2008 was much better.
    If 2017 is a flat transfer of what was used in 2008, this is perhaps the best digital version. That’s why I suggested to buy it.

    DU Japanese dealer on eBay has only sold one copy of the 2018 MQA UHQCD for two years.
    2017 Spain Mini LP – only one copy left…

    There is always a risk to buy unknowing release, but the risk is not that big:

    Search results for Label : "state of art"
     
  18. Kopczas

    Kopczas No nonsense audiophile

    Location:
    Warsaw
    I guess there should be some reference point like as best condition as can be original record from 60`. Sometimes even most sophisticated modern equipment won`t help if the record sounded bad from the beginning.
     
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  19. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor "Rockin' chair's got me" Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Please note:
    Not everything, but it started about 8 years ago in Spain with the launch of a new label Masterworks (nonfunctional now), divided into two parts: Masterworks Singles Original Albums and Masterworks Box Sets (The best albums by the best jazz performers) with new remaster, cardboard sleeve packaging and aggressive price. Over the next few years, they released many albums, gaining experience and skills.
    Based on this experience, and I believe equipment upgrades, they have moved forward with 3 new labels: Crackerjack Records and Jazz Images, which share a similar design and focus on rare and exquisite images by famous French photographer Jean-Pierre Leloir and others. The third label State of Art followed Mini LP approach. Print quality and craftsmanship of these paper sleeve are of high grade. Although the Mini LP covers are not up to Japanese standards, but those jazz images were so attractive and the price at the moment of the release on importcds was so damn low ($7.59 apiece) that I have to buy them all (within my music interest) double and even triple dipping all the time. Isn't that crazy? The craziness at its best...

    I introduced all 4 labels at the 4-page thread Classic torch ballad albums? with some photos of these little toys:
    https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/classic-torch-ballad-albums.726502/page-3 Posts #54 and #57

    Speaking of the reference point, I conducted 3 sonic evaluations of these releases, comparing them to the latest Analog Production SACD releases with traditional remastering from OMT by our best sound engineers:
    Classic torch ballad albums? Posts #76-78
     
  20. Kopczas

    Kopczas No nonsense audiophile

    Location:
    Warsaw
    That`s very interesting. I`m waiting for Mongomery`s album you suggested few posts above. If State of Art is as good as you said, I will go for more titles. Peterson`s Night Train is going to be the first.

    On the other hand, MQA-CD is coming 2nd September.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  21. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor "Rockin' chair's got me" Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    You should try both of them for a better presentation, as Wes Montgomery was in trouble from the beginning and could not possibly provide a good sound sample for the rest.
    It's as if you bought a Wes Montgomery MQA UHQCD, don't like the sound, and say: “MQA UHQCDs are no good – I’ll never buy them again…” It actually happened on this thread with a Steely Dan Royal Scam MQA UHQCD having a tape issue.
    I saw a good deal on the Peterson album: Oscar Peterson - Night Train [New CD] Spain - Import 8436569190852 | eBay
     
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  22. Omnio

    Omnio _ _ _ ____ ____ _ _ _

    Location:
    El Lay
    Do we have a thread that follows new sacd releases and related news like the one here with MQA Cds?
     
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  23. Kopczas

    Kopczas No nonsense audiophile

    Location:
    Warsaw
    Thanks but live in Poland/EU, shipping is a killer with this one. I found one in Discogs in Germany. I would go for it ;)


    Night Trait is known for it`s good SQ so question is how better this new release would.
    I bought it once from HDtracks, and this hirez edition is nightmare indeed.
     
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  24. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor "Rockin' chair's got me" Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    The independent Japanese label Traffic, specializing on Electronica, Experimental and Alternative Rock has been around since mid 80’s.
    Now they have chosen the UHQCD pressing for their first Mini LP market launch. 5 albums of the Krautrock German band Can are available as a Disk Union promo box set and now individually too.
    Cdjapan doesn’t offer it yet. They are available from DU dealers on eBay, yesasia and hmv Japan - UHQCD, but at the same price as regular Mini LP CDs ($22.26).

    Five more Can albums have been announced for the September release.

    July 17, 2020

    (UHQCD)
    Monster Movie (1969)
    Ege Bamyasi (1972)
    Landed (1975)
    Saw Delight (1977)
    Delay 1968 (1981)

    Sep. 25, 2020

    (UHQCD)
    Can Soundtracks (1970)
    Can Future Days (1973)
    Can Unlimited Edition (1976)
    Can Out Of Reach (1978)
    Can Rite Time (1989)

    See details and pictures at:
    Japan Mini LP SHM-CDs - New Releases, George Harrison and more Posts #1108-1112
     
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  25. mr.datsun

    mr.datsun Incompletist

    Location:
    London

    Interesting. These are being put out by P-Vine which means they are likely to be using the standard 2004 Spoon mastering that they (P-Vine) used before.
     
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