Using the headphone jack on a new receiver...

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Scroller, Dec 7, 2019.

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  1. Scroller

    Scroller Hair Metal, Smooth Jazz, New Age...it's all good Thread Starter

    I should probably start with this: even though I’ve been a forum member for quite some time, I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to audio equipment. I’ve always spent the vast majority of my time here focused on music and recordings (Music Corner). My New Year’s resolution will be to work on becoming a more informed audiophile…:D

    Anyway, just today, I set up my new receiver, an Outlaw Audio RR2160 to replace a harman/kardon HK3480 which I’ve had for at least 15 yrs. I guess it’s tough to get too excited over a new receiver, but it’s sounding very very nice when listening through my run-of-the-mill Klipsch bookshelf speakers. I’m sure upgrading the speakers would make huge differences, but that is another matter and eventually I will. My issue is with the headphone jack. When I plug the headphones in (HD 600s), it almost seems as if the power output reduces considerably. Way too much, in fact! What’s going on here? In fact, I can almost turn up an LP to maximum and it’s not really overly loud. Listening through the speakers, however, it gets way louder than I need it to, similar to the HK! CDs sound fine for the most part, but I have to turn those up a little more than usual as well. Weird. The headphones through my harman/kardon HK3480 sounded amazing and I never had any issues with volume. LPs always had to be turned up louder but not even close to full blast. Do I need a headphone amp with the Outlaw Audio? Would this make a huge glaring difference? I never felt like I needed one with the HK. The HD600s don’t seem like they’re performing close to what they’re capable of through the Outlaw Audio. Am I nuts? Any advice?

    One last thing - is it odd that the manual says this about headphone listening?: “Be aware that the headphone experience is not the same as using speakers. Although some listeners prefer headphones, most prefer the loudspeaker experience better. It’s your choice.” Well, OK, sure, but I like both! Can't I have it all?! :p
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
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  2. Claude Benshaul

    Claude Benshaul Forum Resident

    It appears that your current receiver has its headphone amplification geared toward modern headphones which usually have a lower load capacitance than the 90's designed HD600. You may need a dedicated headphone amplifier but I'm not sure how it is possible to connect it with the gear you have at home, so it might get expensive real fast.

    Your manual is correct. Headphones listening is just different from what a pair of speakers will give. The whole way of re-creating the spatial stereo environment is different and also there is simply no way to get from headphones the bass thumping feeling you get from speakers that can very low. It's different - not better or worse - just different.
     
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  3. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    The manual for the Outlaw receiver shows that it has a dedicated volume knob for the headphone jack. That indicates that it is using a dedicated headphone amp to drive the headphone jack. An amp that is obviously underpowered for the HD600/HD650 headphones. An amp that likely has more in common with the type of headphone amp used in a laptop computer than a powerful audiophile style headphone amp. A headphone amp designed for efficient portable style headphones. Few modern receivers will put a good headphone amp in the receiver because good headphone amps add cost. The total cost of the receiver would be increased by several hundred or more.

    Your old H/K receiver was very likely driving the headphone jack from a resistor network off of the speaker amp. Lots of power behind it. That's actually a good way to drive the Senn HD600/HD650 series headphones.

    Fortunately the Outlaw receiver includes REC OUT jacks on the back. Connect a good powerful dedicated headphone amp to the REC OUT jacks and you're in business. There are lots of good headphone amps for the HD600/HD650 style headphones out there. Cost for a good headphone amp for the HD600/HD650 starts at around $200 and goes up. There are some good $100 amps out there now, but I don't consider them to drive the HD600/HD650 well enough. They'll get the HD600/HD650 to play loud enough, but not good enough for me.
     
  4. Scroller

    Scroller Hair Metal, Smooth Jazz, New Age...it's all good Thread Starter

    Yes, understood. I am loving the sound of this receiver through the speakers. Maybe smoother, more refined and balanced than the HK. Bass is focused and clear, highs are tamed a bit more. Nice. Sadly, the headphone experience is not as good as the HK, at least with the HD600s. I've always loved these headphones. Jeez, I guess I don't know where to begin with a separate dedicated headphone setup! :sigh:
     
  5. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ottawa
    I think you meant impedance.

    The HD600's impedance is 300 Ohms - which is indeed high (relatively speaking).

    I just checked, and my Denon AH-D5000's impedance is 25 Ohms and I've never met a device that can't drive them to very loud (and clean) levels.

    So my advice to the OP: by all means consider all of the other suggestions posted here, but personally I'd keep the Outlaw, put the HD600s aside, shop around for a new high quality low impedance set of headphones, and not bother with a separate headphone amplifier.

    Jeff
     
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  6. Scroller

    Scroller Hair Metal, Smooth Jazz, New Age...it's all good Thread Starter

    Ah, OK, thanks! So I can connect a headphone amp directly into the REC OUTs? Well, I've come this far. I guess now, I am after a better headphone sound than what I was getting with the HK. As you and Claude said above, I can see how quickly this can add to the overall cost. I can probably handle $200 for a headphone amp but not much more than that.
     
  7. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    Do you still have the HK receiver? You could connect the HK to the REC OUT of the Outlaw and using the HK as a big headphone amp till you can justify the budget for a dedicated headphone amp that does better.
     
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  8. Scroller

    Scroller Hair Metal, Smooth Jazz, New Age...it's all good Thread Starter

    I did think of maybe trying a different set of headphones, but I'll find it real tough to part with the 600s. It's a great suggestion though, and I will look into it! :thumbsup: I appreciate the advice here.
     
  9. marcob1963

    marcob1963 Forum Resident

    Don't part with the 600s, they're great headphones, get a headphone amp.
     
  10. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    Both speakers and headphones have a possible 20dB range of sensitivity and efficiency, so you're not going to get the same volume switching between the two on an amp except by happenstance.

    96dB sensitivity Klipsch speakers might be louder than headphones, but 84dB sensitivity B&Ws might be quieter.

    The volume disparity when you unplug is just an inconvenience, not necessarily an indication of poorer audio.

    Headphone outputs on receivers are just "taps" off the amplifier's speaker output, that reduce the wattage by various techniques, often as an afterthought. They don't have a separate mini-amp inside dedicated to just headphones.
     
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  11. Scroller

    Scroller Hair Metal, Smooth Jazz, New Age...it's all good Thread Starter

    Yeah, still have it. And I will give it a shot and see what happens. I will now have 2 gigantic receivers cluttering up my listening room, :D. I still like the HK, but part of the reason for the upgrade is the blue display light burned out years ago on the HK. Drives me nuts.
     
  12. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    Yeah, that seems entirely backwards to me.

    OP, get a good headphone amp with enough juice for it and you'll be rewarded tenfold with great sound. Using that money to instead buy headphones whose sound you very likely won't love as much to "fit" (so to speak) within the confines of already topped-out gear (headphone portion of the Outlaw) won't yield as good a result. Of that, I'm 100% positive.
     
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  13. Scroller

    Scroller Hair Metal, Smooth Jazz, New Age...it's all good Thread Starter

    Right. I think I understand. It's just that the HK must have been more compatible with the HD600s. They really seemed to bloom much better through the HK than the Outlaw. But yeah, I can understand that it would raise the cost of the Outlaw considerably in order for it to achieve better headphone performance. That likely wasn't a priority with this particular receiver. So would you also suggest getting a separate headphone amp for the Outlaw?
     
  14. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    You're set. You'll have your old headphone sound back. And there is something manly about using a physically big headphone amp.
    The only caution is to check/confirm that it is OK to run the HK receiver without a load attached to the speaker taps. Most amps are OK with that. Some are not (usually tube amps).

    Dedicated headphone amps that I would consider good enough to recommend would be amps like the Schiit Vali 2, Schiit Asgard 3 for solid state, or Schiit Vahallia for full tube OTL. There are of course other headphone amps that will do the needful. There are some $100 amps like the Schiit Magni or Monoprice Cavalli Liquid Spark that have enough power but the sound is too constrained for what I'm willing to recommend for the HD600/HD650. The Magni and Liquid Spark are good $100 amps, but for the HD600/HD650 I'd recommend something just a bit better. Amps like the Schiit Valhallia can be found used for good prices.
     
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  15. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    If it was solely a concern about the volume disparity, (and your amp doesn't let you turn up the headphone volume attenuation), then one option is to turn down the speakers instead.

    [​IMG]

    One of these made into a "speaker wire attenuation box" may not have audiophile credentials, but in fact, an L-pad volume may also present an easier-to-drive speaker load to the amplifier.

    A headphone amp shouldn't be something you have to buy, but the internal headphone attenuation is unlikely to be sophisticated in the rip-off-other-designs Outlaw, perhaps giving quite different sound characteristics depending on the headphone impedance. A dedicated headphone amp may improve audio, and even enable the use of the optional balanced cables for these headphones, but so could even a $20 Craigslist stereo receiver.

    Remember, our perception of music is very much influenced by the volume, so ensure you evaluate at matched volume levels.
     
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  16. Scroller

    Scroller Hair Metal, Smooth Jazz, New Age...it's all good Thread Starter

    Not an Outlaw fan? :D But you're absolutely right. Headphone performance, at least with my HD600s, does not seem to be sophisticated at all with the Outlaw. I'm trying not to just be influenced by the overall volume level. While the HK made the headphones capable of attaining higher volume levels, I do think the less expensive HK made my headphones sound fuller and more immersive, better depth, wider soundstage, etc. If I do get the opportunity to do some comparisons with equipment, I will certainly keep matched volume levels in mind. I appreciate your advice.
     
  17. jeffsab

    jeffsab Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    I have a Schiit Asgard 2 headphone amp for sale in the classifieds for $100 right now. It's a Class A amp and sounds pretty amazing with Sennheiser HD600/650s. No hard sell or anything. Others can certainly weigh in on its sound and reputation.
     
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  18. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    Keep in mind it's a *lot* of amp packed in at a very affordable price. A corner or two needed to be compromised on.

    Changes in volume levels in comparisons make those comparisons 100% meaningless.

    And that's without an actual dedicated headphone amp. Such a device will take the sound to a higher plane so (in your case) a wise investment, IMHO. If you don't believe us, head to head-fi.org and ask that headphone-obsessed bunch what they think. They'll tell you the exact same thing.
     
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  19. Vincent Kars

    Vincent Kars Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europa
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  20. Thesmellofvinyl

    Thesmellofvinyl Senior Member

    Location:
    Cohoes, NY USA
    Excuse me if this is too far off topic but I have a similar question, albeit one about an old receiver. It's an Onkyo HT-R550, and although I get sound from my DVD going through the receiver to the TV via HDMI, I don't get the same audio through the headphone jack. When I connect a CD player using RCA connectors, I do get audio from the headphone jack. I checked the manual's trouble-shooting page and Googled but no luck. I thought someone here might have once had the same problem and could suggest a solution.
     
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