Vacuum or Ultrasound record cleaning machines?

My first generation Okki Nokki has been working well for me for eight years now.

 

I don't see a problem with the suction lifting the record. Anything less and I would question whether all particles are being removed if it didn't. I turn the record manually so rotation is fine. I have also started using a 45 adapter to elevate the record off the mat, thus preventing particles on the other side being pressed back into the grooves, removing the water prematurely, or scratching the surface on the mat. When I flip it over the already vacuumed side doesn't pick up anything afterward.

 

But remember never clean 78s with a solution that contains alcohol. That will ruin the 78.

 

True!

 

I've found that if you clean with a basin like Spin Clean or Vinyl Styl you need to include a rinse step and 2 vacuum steps. 1. Clean in basin, 2. vacuum, 3. rinse in basin, 4. vacuum dry. You don't necessarily need an expensive RCM, just an old turntable, a wet/dry shop vac, and a vinyl vac attachment. That will run you $60-$70. If you are going to spend big $$$ get the US cleaner. Don't waste your money on a RCM and then get the same results you would with a shop vac. I think most agree that US does a noticeably better cleaning but it certainly comes at significantly greater cost.

 

I wrote "As long as the suction isn't so strong as to pull the record up or stop it from rotating you should be fine"...Re-reading this I realise I should've been more clear as to what I meant by lifting the record, there is a small lift with RCMs with some records, but I meant it in context of suction being to strong and hence causing rotation issues.

 

I've never had any static cleaning with my DIY vacuum machine.

 

A good record clamp eliminates that lifting/non-spin issue.

 

Ditto with my VPI

 

Hello all, thanks for amking this thread, I'm coming back to vinyl after 40 years and considering a Pro-Ject VC-S2 ALU or a Moth MkII would any of you have experience of these and or thoughts on them ?

 

I use an Ultra Sonic cleaning method of 3 rotations per a 30 minute cycle @ 35-45 C followed immediately by a Record Doctor vacuuming then slipped into a new MoFi sleeve.

 

Here is how I clean records.

 

So ultrasonic cleaners only need water to clean records. I thought a chemical additive was needed, at least that's what I've seen on the Youtube video for the $4k unit. Have you compared cleaning with and without chemicals and noticed any difference?

Thanks...

 

I've read several post on debris in the ultrasonic water possible contaminating the next batch of records, however, it seems to me that if the contaminates drop to the bottom of the machine that it would not recirculate since the record is spinning so slow and not agitating the water and causing the debris at the bottom of the unit recirculate.

This makes me think of the method I use to clean my vehicles. I use a bucket with a grit guard where all of the dirt and grit drops below the grit guard and to the bottom of the bucket preventing that stuff from contaminating the wash water. I think a grit guard or something similar in the ultrasonic unit would provide the same benefit.

Thoughts?

 

I don't use a US but with a basin system particles do build up the dirtier the records and the longer you wait to change it out. But it seems to me that those particles only land back on the surface on the vinyl, not in the grooves. So if you vacuum as it comes out it isn't really a major issue. It you air dry it definitely is.

Regarding particles settling at the bottom, that is true but it is time sensitive. If you are going to clean several batches of records one after another it isn't going to happen. If you clean a batch and then wait until the next day to clean another it will have settled to the bottom. So if you are cleaning lots of records it is an issue.

I've experimented with adding a flocculent to the water in order to speed up the process of dropping particles to the bottom. It doesn't work. It doesn't bond with the particles fast enough to make a difference. You get the same results (particles settling at bottom after several hours) doing nothing.

 

Particles do tend to settle, but if you're cleaning several records at once, the lighter particles will not have had time to sink to the bottom. It's unavoidable with an US machine, but can be minimized. The easiest way do that is to ensure records are as clean as possible before putting them into the US machine. At a minimum, I use a Giotto Blaster to first blow particles off the record. Whatever cleaning methods I'm using, they all start with the Giotto, which may be enough if it's a brand new high quality/clean pressing, like a Mofi for instance. Blow off any dust, put it into the US machine and call it done. Now, if the record is in any way dirty, I'll hit it with the Giotta, then on to a suction type machine (VPI in my case) for a wash/suction...then into the US machine. Heck, if the record is REALLY dirty, I'll put it through a manual spin clean before the suction machine. Whatever steps you use to clean a particular record, the idea is to make it as clean as possible before each step.

Now, if you really want to get crazy regarding those particles, make the last step an US clean but without the drying cycle. Instead, carefully take the wet record out of the US machine and place it on a suction, or better yet string-type, machine for a final clean and dry. This requires you have multiple mats as you'll be placing a wet record on one of them. Over the top, but I suspect that's the most thorough way to ensure no particles remain on the vinyl.

Hope that helps.

 

I started up with vinyl after a 20 year hiatus a year ago. I've noticed some distortion on old jazz albums. I've been using a spin clean for a few months now. It has made a big difference but I just ordered an ultrasonic cleaning device for about $100 from Wish. Is performing a spin clean first and then putting the wet album in the ultrasonic machine the correct procedure? Is cleaner added to the ultrasonic bath or would it be distilled water? I wasn't planning on adding a vacuum yet, it seems they are quite a bit more expensive than the ultrasonic cleaning kit.

 

My procedure is:

Spin Clean to remove surface debris, and loosen embedded debris.
Rinse.
US Clean using "Rushtons" formula, at .33 RPM for 15 min / 5 revolution / 30'c water
Rinse.
Vac Dry using an old Nitty Gritty.

Spin Clean and vac dry does an excellent job of removing about 85% of debris. Adding a US step removes another 10-12% of debris. There is considerable dirt and debris in the SC tank after a cleaning session. There is surprising amount of debris in the effluent of the US tank after a session. This is debris that was not removed by the Spin Clean and rinse alone.

US provides sonic improvement. After SC and Vac dry I would still hear a low level wooooosh-shhhhhhh sound in the background of older LPs. After US, this sound is mostly gone, leaving a dead silent background that is lower in level than the noise floor of my system. I can hear a song fade away to an abrupt end, or fade into silence. Transient response and audibility of ambiance cues, air, additional soundstage cues are all improved. I can hear the leading edge of a drum stick striking a cymbal, then the shimmer that slowly decays into harmonics. I can hear individual valves opening and closing in a brass instrument. I can hear faint intakes and exhales of breath by a singer in front of a microphone. My theory is that a layer of grunge becomes bonded to the LP surface over time and is audible as the wooooooshhh-shhhhh sound I mentioned earlier. This layer is impervious to most cleaning methods. US removes this layer and uncovers the small, micron level edges of content that was covered by the grunge. This is stuff that was previously muffled, or simply not audible. Now it is, and the only change I made was in adding US to my cleaning regime. My results are repeatable. I can purchase an LP that was cleaned by a VPI or similar device. Then play it and it will sound very good, but there will be some artifacts. Then I clean, using my regime, and there it is, audible improvement that is the same as what I generally experience.

One can construct a DIY US cleaner for a few hundred $. It is easy to source a Chinese US tank, and a LP holder/spinner- I use a "Vinyl Stacker" to hold several LPs at once. It works for me, but there are others. Next step up is a Kirmus, and one has to wade through all of the extravagant claims made by the seller to determine if it is what you want or need. It is much cheaper than other turn key solutions, but much of the hype is worthless. What is comes down to is scrub, US clean, scrub some more, US clean again, dry.

Good Luck.

 

Yes, Spin Clean followed by US. Most US machines use plain water, though some do accept fluid, like the AudioDesk, which also includes submerged brushes and record cleaning fluid, as it's intended to be an all in one solution.

 

A wet/dry Shop vac is $30 and a vinyl vac attachment is $30. Throw in a broken turntable from goodwill for $5 and you have a vacuum system as good or better than an expensive RCM for less than $75. If you are using a spin clean already add a vacuum, follow with a rinse in a separate basin of distilled water ($30 for a cheap spin clean knockoff called Studebaker) and then a second vacuum. That should clean most records. If not do an ultrasonic cleaning afterward. If you still have surface noise on a record it isn't a dirty record, it is a damaged record.

 

I have always wondered if US cleaners can disturb one’s ears, even if not able to “hear” it?

I already have tinnitus and dont want to worsen it.

I have a Loricraft from years ago that isn’t set up right now. I did clean much of my collection, so a carbon fiber brush seems to do the job on clean records that I then play.

That being said, I’m at my late parent’s house and am playing my dad’s old LP’s which were rather dusty. Having no cleaning machine here, I’m just carefully rinsing then off in the sink at an angle to keep the label dry, then patting with paper towels and air drying. Seems to work.

While it’s an old table it sounded great. I had forgotten I bought him a Grado cartidge years ago.

 

Dang rinsing with tap water and drying with paper towels, yikes

 

Perfect!

 

Are your ears elliptically shaped, or did you have them shaved down to a nice line contact edge...?

 

Very interesting that you mention this. I've made my own RCM patterned after the Nitty Gritty. I like the idea of a fixed vacuum pad and running the vinyl over it. What is interesting is that so many say that you have to be SO very careful not to over vacuum dry with too many revolutions or you will have this terrible static. Well, what is really weird in my case, and I take NO credit at all, it just comes out this way, is that in order like you say to get the record properly dry (and clean) it does indeed take with my crude setup about 10 or more full revolutions until the album is truly dry. And, like you say it really looks great!

BUT... the weird thing is that no matter how many revolutions I need to use to dry the album completely, never, and I mean NEVER after sitting the vinyl down on my TT, is there EVER the slightest hint of static. I know, weird... And, I do NOT know why. But, I know absolutely for sure since I've used my RCM hundreds of times, that after cleaning I will never ever have any static what so ever. Maybe someone else can explain why...

Here are my pictures of my system and it includes a picture of my RCM if anyone wants to check it out. Crude looking li'l bugger I know, but I feel it really works extremely well.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9ja3UKob7tppW4Y38

BTW, I really, really appreciate all you truly knowledgeable guys spelling out in detail what your experiences are about this subject and comparison. I saw a nice video last night of a fellow who made his own US cleaning machine, and it looked really easy. I just wonder if I really, REALLY need to add that process when I honestly feel that my RCM along with AI #15, followed by #9, and then a Laboratory Grade Purified Water rinse truly does seem to do a great job (but, the reason for this thread... ARE there indeed cases where an addition cleaning with an US machine WILL indeed improve it...???)