Very surprised to not really like the Brio-R

Brio-R, 50W/ch (at no stated distortion, no distortion figures published) - $1000






Yamaha A-S801, 100W/ch @ 0.019% THD (dynamic power up to 220W/ch @ 4 ohms), $900

Also includes ESS Sabre 32-bit DAC w DSD, optical/coax/USB DAC interface for PC

 

Um, thanks. What are you trying to illustrate? Did you just want to show us what they look like?
I think Yamaha is able to pack in more features due to the economy of scale. They are a much larger company and can source things much cheaper than Rega can.

I used to have the Yamaha A-S701 and liked it pretty well. Honestly, sometimes I feel like I should just go out and get an 801, if not the A-S1100...

 

Brio measurements, current and previous iteration, can be found online if one is that way inclined. Rega spec their amps honestly, BTW.

Brio's, IIRC, by design, have relatively high 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion, akin to some tube/valve amps. It has more what might be deemed 'musical' qualities. Some might care for more detail in the presentation, and obviously more power.

The Brio is designed at a price point to match bookshelves and similarly budgeted floor standers. It performs very well in this regard, and can do OK with higher priced speakers. It works just fine with my SHL5 Plus, but is not the last word by any means. The Yam is less successful here, to my ears anyway.

 

Interesting reading. I would've thought A-S2100 & Supernait 2 were diametric opposites in respect of their offerings, at least relative to SS amp presentation. I think the reviewer for a UK publication recently said the new Supernait 3 (I'm paraphrasing here...) bounced along more and commanded attention as opposed to the rather more mature presentation of his A-S3000 (very similar topology to the 2100).

Not to overly derail the thread, but I ask the above with a vested interest in both as a potential future acquisition.

 

There’s no question that the A-S2100 and A-S3000 sound very similar, and offer the distinctively natural, sophisticated and mature sound for which Yamaha is justifiably famous. I find both of those integrated amps immensely satisfying - aggressive when a recording calls for it, laid back when a recording calls for it, roof-raising excitement when a recording calls for it.

The Naim Supernait 2 does not sound the same as the Yamaha, but rather offers Naim’s ‘take’ on all the same things that Yamaha does with its high-end offerings. Blindfolded while listening, the three amplifiers (four if you count the Supernait 3, five if you count the wonderful Simaudio Moon 340i) are very hard to tell apart, but the differences are there. However, they’re not differences in absolute quality but rather distinctions that respect what each amp’s respective designer feels and hears is most transparent to the source material. When it comes to the character of any given recording, all four integrated amps do a superb job of reproducing it faithfully rather than imposing their own character. Still, the designers’ passions and intent are clear.

An audiophile can add the Audio Analogue Maestro, Plinius Hautonga, Pathos TT InPol, Gryphon Diablo 300, Luxman L-590AX, Simaudio 600i V2, and a few others as he scales the price ladder.

I think that the Brio 2 that started this thread remains a terrific choice for small systems. The Brio (all versions) is a blast, and excellent value for the money. But the Elicit-R and the Osiris are what Rega produces to compete with the best integrated amps available today at the two significantly different price points. I’ll happily swap an Osiris for any of the wonderful integrated amps I listed above. If, on the other hand, somebody forced me to live with the Elicit-R, I’d ‘suffer’ in complete satisfaction. I think it’s really hard to find a bad integrated amp choice once an audiophile hits the $2500 price or thereabout.

 

None. I also use the external Naim HiCap power supply. Silent. Music pours out of a dead black background.

In this class of integrated amp, hum or buzz must be completely absent. No exceptions.

 

Would you describe the A-S1100 similarly?

 

To my ears, yes on some material but not on other material. It sounds very good nonetheless, and IMO remains an excellent choice for a lot of setups and systems.

 

Do you think this Naim stack would be competitive or even superior to a Supernait2?:

Naim NAC 152 XS & NAP 155 XS Preamp/Poweramp Bundle

Seems like a good deal but I'm not very familiar with the Naim lineup.

 

Ha! I was looking at the same exact deal a couple days ago! Those pieces don’t get same stellar reviews as some of the Naim integrated amps.

 

The NAC 152XS and NAP 155XS are entry-level separates in the Naim lineup. They’re good in their own ways, but they don’t stack up well against the Supernait 2 integrated amp or the Supernait 3.

The Supernait series provides on a single chassis much of the sound, control and musicality of the separates in the Naim Classic series, not the entry level series. Compare the Supernait 2 and 3 to the combination of the Naim NAC 252 and the NAP 300, especially when the HiCap power supply is in the setup.

 

Oh man, you so make me want a Naim integrated!! You should get on their payroll...

 

The new-ish Plinius Hautonga is not too far off the pace, and a bit better according to some ears. Then there’s the Rega Osiris and the aforementioned Gryphon. They’ll both make most audiophiles forget about most separates, just like the Supernait 2 and 3. Integrated amp designs and topologies have received a lot of attention from designers and engineers over the past thirty years or more, and in some companies just as much attention as their separates.

I think that the audible quality gap that many audiophiles assumed used to exist when comparing integrateds with separates was never as wide or as significant as the audio writers and reviewers made it out to be. The reality is that while separate chassis and power supplies for preamps and amps have a fairly significant list of theoretical physical and electrical advantages, the fully successful execution of such designs is no less problematic than the successful execution of a great integrated amp design. I think it’s also important to emphasize that the Supernait 2 or 3 plus the Naim HiCap power supply is eye-wateringly expensive by many measures.

I’ve set up and used the Rega Brio-R and Brio 2 in several different nearfield systems (in one case only semi-nearfield), both on desktops and in small listening rooms. With the right speakers - Harbeth P3ES2, P3ESR, Falcon Acoustics LS3/5A, Totem Rainmaker, Totem Sky, ProAc Tablette, Diapason Micra III, Russell K Red 50, Omega Super 7, Wharfedale Diamond 225, KEF R100, B&W 685 S2, and the Reference 3A MM de Capo among a few others, the half-width integrated amp can sound terrific. Musical, generally accurate, enjoyable - perhaps not the last word in detail, microdynamics, resolution or the ability to sort out really complex recordings - but thoroughly enjoyable. On the other hand, trying to use a Brio of any vintage to drive mid-size, mid-efficiency floorstanders trying to fill a medium size or large room is a low percentage bet.

I think the Brio is a fine little integrated amp. Respect its limitations and it can be impressive.

 

Found a demo Supernait 2 for $2799.
Kinda tempted.

 

Lebowski

You’ve received some excellent advice in this thread from some knowledgeable folks. Many choices. As regards to the used Supernait 2 in the post above, I will say I have heard this integrated driving a pair of Wilson Sabrinas at a friends store. The combination was lovely. A very impressive integrated.

 

Do let us know if you pull the trigger!

 

Have actually not heard the Brio, but have an Elicit-R driving Kef Reference 1s in my main system. Accuracy and detail are the two words that best describe the sound, with a some nicely balanced warmth from the Rega front end. Really great amp. Sure the KEFs could use a little more power but the Elicit gets the job done. Definitely does justice to the much more expensive speakers.

I could happily live with the Elicit forever, but when the time comes I am strongly considering the Osiris. Have to get the Aura phono first

 

Looks like the power rating for this amp is 80wpc into 8 ohms. No 4 ohm rating is given, which might suggest that it's not good.

KEF claims an 89db sensitivity and an 8 ohm rating for your speakers, when in fact Atkinson's measurements indicated an 87db sensitivity and an impedance that stays between 4 and 6 ohms for most of the audio band.

I'd buy a good 4 ohm rated amp if I were you.

 

Would certainly like to buy it, but not sure that’s the kinda money I want to part with right now. The A-S1100 is much more manageable but, as @Agitater said, might just be a lateral move. Those meters sure are cool though...

 

80 WPC probably on the low side.

 

Not sure what you’re talking about. Naim specs are clear on the matter. From the product manual and the web site:

Power Output: 80W + 80W RMS into 8ohms (135W + 135W into 4ohms)

In my own test, the Supernait 2, and now the 3 as well are stable into 2 ohm loads though that’s pushing the envelope with any integrated amp including the Yamaha A-S2100 and another favorite of mine the now-discontinued Ayre AX5 which was/is terrific though it gets far too little attention in many discussions.

 

Sorry. I didn't download the manual, just looked on the website.

I'm a firm believer in bringing a lot of juice to the party. 135 doesn't cut it. You need double the power for a 3db increase in volume. My integrated is rated at 200/400. When you turn the volume up it just gets louder. Just my 2cents.

 

More wattage, as calculated using the RMS spec method, is a reliable way of estimating an amp’s ability to drive a particular pair of speakers to a particular volume at a particular listening distance and frequency. That’s all it’s good for. If you’re happy with your own integrated amp, that’s great.

Just like your integrated amp, when you turn up the volume on any of the ones I’ve recommended in this thread, the sound just gets louder. I don’t know why you would think anything else would happen with them.

It’s important to bring some rationality to this sort of technical discussion. For a fact, in the average listening room that I’ve measured, and using commonly available integrated amps of average power driving 8 ohm (nominal) speakers of average efficiency (88 dB/1W/1 meter at 1 kHz), playing music at a measured average SPL of 72 dB at the listening position 2.5 meters (which is moderately loud) from the speakers runs the integrated amp at an average of 2.5 watts RMS (average continuous). An increase of 3 dB demands 5 watts. Another increase of 3 dB demands 10 watts. Another increase of 3 dB demands 20 watts. Another increase of 3 dB demands 40 watts. Another increase of 3 dB (to ~87 dB at the listening position, again, continuous average) gets you into hearing damage territory when considered over months and years of listening sessions for an average of an hour at a time. That’s all at a listening distance of 2.5 meters/8 feet. Audiophiles need to smarten up about long-term hearing damage.

Reduce power needs to one-quarter of the above calculations when you halve the listening distance. Double the power needs when you increase the listening distance by 50%.

Then there’s the fact that speakers do not respond uniformly with respect to impedance across their bandwidth, and the fact that their phase angle does not remain constant throughout the frequency range, all of which presents load and power issues to amps. Add the variables of lively rooms vs overdamped rooms to further complicate matters. Add the fact that most moderate-powered integrated amps are easily capable of producing astonishing clean instantaneous peak power (i.e., clean headroom for reproduction of brief loud dynamics and momentary sforzando in the music, etc.). Add the fact that noise performance at or approaching peak continuous power (e.g., 95+ dB at a 2.5 meter listening position) is invariably loaded with odd-order harmonic distortion, and you further increase the real risk of long-term hearing damage. Add the fact that reducing the background noise floor of a listening room can dramatically reduce the need for higher listening levels. Add the fact that high background noise levels that have to be overcome in a listening room can result in even high-powered integrated or power amps being driven at levels that introduce unacceptable levels of output distortion (which some audiophiles don’t even hear because they’ve gotten used to it).

Simply stating that for every 3dB increase in volume, double the power is needed is a fact absent any useful context. So no audiophile needs to spend money for any good reason on any high-powered integrated amp unless he first takes a properly logical look at his listening distance and listening room to determine if any such power will be needed. Most of the time, the answer is no.

 

What an awesome post.

Now I want to check out the Naim 5si. I was thinking 60 watts might not be enough but it probably is. And it’s an attainable piece, price wise.

 

Indeed, Naim amps have always been rated conservatively. In truth, the 5si is actually outputting over 70 watts into 8 ohm from independent measurements I've seen. It's a really nice amp.

That said, the deals available on a SN2, either ex demo or used, would make me think if at all possible it's worthwhile holding out and saving a little longer if indeed it is Naim you want. The savings relative to the value proposition is significant. And you could put off any notion of upgrading indefinitely.