[very technical] Beatles UK first press: are we so sure that everything is clear?

This is the thread I was looking for

http://z10.invisionfree.com/BeatlesCollecting/index.php?showtopic=701&st=0

 

No doubt there were damaged parts and rejected product. That still doesn't explain a factor of 4 or 5 to 1. I'm just doing the math.

As for only being able to speculate about the technical reason for 5,000 per stampers, well...exactly, it's speculation. I have no reason to question the figures Roy quoted, however it wasn't the focus of the conversation and it's quite possible that if the comment was drilled into further, we'd find some nuance, and some if's, and's or buts that would bring that number down under more real world conditions.

The 10,000 number may not be exactly right for the total number of each 82 reissue release, but there is no way there were 10,000 mono boxes. The mono boxes were numbered. Try to find one with a number even remotely close to 10000. In fact, try to find one with a number higher than 1000...

 

Exactly. And that's only the -1/-1 mono & stereo stampers, no? Considering that Sgt Pepper has sold a total of 5.1 million copies total in the UK from 1967 through Fall 2013 on all formats -- vinyl, CD, cassette, 8 track, downloads -- the numbers aren't even close if 5000 records per stamper were used.

 

And there's no way 2 million of the mono alone were sold in the first two years.

(edit: or maybe so. Half a million in the first month in the UK according to The Beatles Bible.)

 

Of course, this fact does not mean that one lacquer (one for the mono edition and one for stereo version) was more than enough to meet the market demand of that time: given the fact that each mother and each stamper were used to death!

The considerations that we are doing now concern only with the famous "average" about how many records each stamper pressed.

 

That's mono AND stereo. There no way they sold a half million mono copies in the 1st month in the UK. My guesstimate (see above) is that at most 500,000 mono copies sold in total and probably less.

 

Yes, except the stereo lacquers were done several times if I recall for Sgt Pepper -- as they were a number of other Beatle LPs (some contemporaneously; some later in the late 60s or the 70s.)

Why would you need several sets of lacquers for Beatles For Sale if you could easily make several million LPs per lacquer at even 3,000 or 4,000 LPs per stamper? It just doesn't add up.

 

The black boxes were numbered to 1,000 for the US market, the red boxes weren't numbered and they made more than the original 2,000 intended for the UK, the red boxes ended up being exported to the US and other markets, and up to 9,000 is the number that floats around.
http://wogew.blogspot.com.au/2013/02/the-original-1982-mono-boxed-sets.html

Think you meant to say the mono With The Beatles, where at least 6 lacquers were used early on.

I imagine EMI freaked out a bit with the advance orders that had to be on the shelves in a short time frame.
The lacquers were only cut in mid to late November and product needed to be with the retailers for the Christmas buying rush.
Subsequently Decca and Pye were subcontracted for pressing to assist production, and think about it, not much good sending those pressing plants just one metal master or lacquer to press from if there turns out to be an early problem with the metal, better to have a duplicate on hand as a safety measure to keep the presses rolling.

 

Among other things, the curious thing is that from the musical point of view I've never been a big fan of the Beatles, and I listen to a Beatles song barely once a year; but from the collecting point of view, I think the Beatles are the most interesting group of all.

 

Don't forget all the mothers that were sent overseas - these were visually unnumbered, but I'm sure they were numbered internally. Not sure whether EMI also sent stampers overseas (certainly didn't send stampers to Australia).

Can't credit the 1400 series for early SPLHCB mono pressings - it didn't come into play until 1972.

Yes, 500 (imported) copies of each mono title were sold in Australia alone between July 1981 and December 1981 (which begs the question - why does everyone refer to them as the "1982 monos" when it's blatantly clear that they were released in 1981??? 1982 was when they were thrown in a box). If this is any indication, then multiply by a factor of 10 for the UK market plus other markets the LPs were exported to.

 

It's all OK but: do we have official data about how many mono copies and how many stereo copies pressed starting from the first -1 UK lacquer of "Sgt. Pepper" were sold in total?

Or: can we reconstruct the figure with a good approximation?

 

Worldwide sales? Dunno. But I do have the official Aussie sales here somewhere though (which all originated from UK -1/-1 mothers)...

 

I'm referring to copies pressed starting from the first -1 UK lacquer; I apologize for the inaccuracy.
I do not think that the number of copies pressed abroad (from England) using UK metal parts, is a very high number.

 

Again, EMI UK sent mothers made from the original UK -1/-1 lacquers worldwide. Presumably, you mean how many copies were pressed in the UK for domestic release or export?

 

Yes, exactly. I do not think that the number of copies pressed abroad (from England) using UK metal parts, is a very high number.

 

What I mean is this: from what I understand, with regard to the mono (UK naturally) version of "Sgt Pepper" were plated approximately 500 stampers; regarding the stereo version, about 900 (here we can find a copy pressed by the 911th stamper http://www.popsike.com/Beatles-1967-UK-Ist-Press-STEREO-Sgt-Pepper-LP/180197107343.html . If we can reconstruct the number of copies sold, with a good approximation we can know how many records were pressed per stamper. It 's just a curiosity, of course, nothing fundamentally important.

I think that there will be official sales data, somewhere (I'm referring to UK -1 "Sgt. Pepper" copies, naturally).

 

You keep coming up with more conjecture as fact to support your contentions without any apparent consideration to whether it makes any sense logically.

"Up to 9,000" boxes? As in somewhere between zero and 9,000? If there were "up to 9,000" mono red boxes made (vs 1,000 black boxes), shouldn't we see "up to 9" times as many red boxes on the aftermarket? I have no doubt "up to 9,000" is floating around out there (as is a number of 300 and 1000 and probably others), but if someone on the internet says a horse is a dog that doesn't make it correct -- or even logical.

I don't claim to know which of the reported numbers of red boxes is correct, if any of them are correct (nor does anyone probably), but common sense would say that 9,000 doesn't make sense given that there are only 1,000 black boxes and red boxes are as rare as, if not more rare than, black boxes. Which is why, as I said before, I push back on this urban legend nonsense because people (like the fellow who restarted this thread) begin to take it as gospel even though common sense would dictate that that they aren't likely true.

And no, I meant Beatles For Sale (mono), although With The Beatles (and others) would apply as well. There were 2 sets of lacquers made for each side of the mono BFS (-3N and -4N for both sides -- I assume -1N & -2N were rejected) and they were used concurrently in the initial pressing. Enough to produce 5 million LPs (in a country of 50 million) if the figures being thrown around in this thread are correct. So yes while initial orders were high for both albums, it certainly didn't necessitate more than one lacquer for each side if EMI even pressed 2,500 records per stamper, let alone 5,000.

Contracting out pressing is totally irrelevant with regard to the number of records a stamper can produce. Contracting out would be a function of plant capacity, not stamper efficiency. And they're weren't sending out lacquers to the other pressing plants, they were sending out mothers and/or stampers already produced from an undamaged lacquer. Regardless if they were going to make 2 lacquers as a precautionary measure, it would have nothing to do with contract pressing. But yet again, if EMI made 2 lacquers as precaution just in case one broke, why didn't they do that for every album -- stereo and mono?

The most logical answer to all of this is quite simple...the number of albums pressed from a stamper in practice was simply far lower than 5,000.

 

The only official data likely available is the 5.1 million copies sold in the UK (all formats) through Fall 2013. If the granulated data you refer to was available, I would think it would have been accessed and published by someone like Mark Lewisohn or Bruce Spizer.

 

I agree, but earlier in the thread I threw out a (probably very) generous number of 50,000. But I had nothing to base that on other than educated guesswork on the market size of the few countries that likely were sent mono mothers/stampers.

 

Okay my mistake, when you said several sets of lacquers for Beatles For Sale, I presumed that meant more than 2 sets.