Viewing a restored version of The Fellowship of the Ring - Questions.

Edit: Wait a minute, did someone photoshop Obama logos onto Alfalfa and Spanky?

 

Looks like it. Geez, ya can't even trust jpg's any more.

 

Spanky was on our board of trustees back in the 80's when I was at UNCA.

 

The one thing that stuck out to me in the first movie was that, when Frodo and the others meet Gandalf again after battling the monster, he does not recognize them, even when they call him by name... He says something like "Ohh.... I was once called that... now I am Gandalf the grey (or white... I don't remember)". And then Gandalf launches into a lengthy discourse to catch them all up with the plot. So... all of a sudden he remembers them, who they are, what they are doing...? It really makes no sense and is verging on the laughable.

It's been years since I've seen the movies, so apologies if this is not accurate. I just remember how it struck me at the time.


One final note: I read "The Return of the King" before the final movie came out, just so I could know what happened. I thought it ham-handed when Saruman returns at the end of the book to "industrialize" the Shire. I remember the phrase "I just thought I would stir up some mischief.". It struck me as below-average writing.

That is all.

 

Tolkien always defended it as showing that the War did, in fact, affect the Shire and that the Hobbits did not need outside help to defend their own. Saruman had already been secretly dealing with Lotho Baggins for years, probably because Gandalf got him hooked on tobacco.

 

I actually read the book after seeing the movie and I was amused by that chapter, although it is different in tone from the rest of the trilogy. To me, it serves as a warning against complacency and Tolkien probably wanted to convey a message of anti-industrialism. It may have been in some ways his response to fascism.

I actually think that it would have worked on film, but I suppose there just wasn't room to fit it in.

 

It's a slow morning - waiting for the tree trimming crew to show up, so I'll toss out my take.

The Eagles were the eyes and messengers of Manwe, one of the Valar (Guardians) on Middle-earth.

The Valar used to inhabit the confines of Middle-earth, helped shape it, nurture it, and protect it (from the hurts of Morgoth, one of the Valar who rebelled as he wanted to be Lord of Middle-earth).

The Valar learned that direct 'divine' intervention didn't work out all that well, so they removed themselves to the Undying Lands and no longer walked in Middle-earth. They were still within the confines of time in Middle-earth, but unreachable from Middle-earth except for Elves (who had the right to leave Middle-earth, if they chose), or a very select few exceptions.

Therefore the Eagles were Manwe's touchstone to Middle-earth since he (and the other Valar) didn't completely renounce the role as "Guardians", but the Valar took a 'hands off' approach in meddling in the affairs of Middle-earth. Bending others to do your bidding or doing things for the inhabitants of ME just went wrong.

This is stated in the chapter of The Council of Elrond (in the book) when the council is debating what to do about the One Ring:

So, Manwe would have refused to send the Eagles anyway, imo.

The use of the Eagles (from within the context of the mythos, not a story writing perspective) was a non-starter from the get go. They are sent by Manwe for rescue to those in need; the dwarves and Bilbo in The Hobbit, Gandalf from imprisonment in Orthanc by Saruman, and Sam and Frodo from Mt Doom.

 

I've never considered that an issue. He died and was reborn; literally! Very interesting that Tolkien himself would seem to agree, though:

from letter 156 To Robert Murray, SJ. (draft)
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/the_letters_of_j.rrtolkien.pdf

 

The original theatrical versions are on Blu Ray with the correct colour grading, it's the extended editions that have changes, right?

 

Yes, but only Fellowship.

 

I've just been rewatching the series on blu-ray, just got ROTK to go.

I read the book as a youth, a guy I used to buy lots of books from gave me a beat up copy he couldn't sell, still have it somewhere. I've always been a bit interested in the background as Tolkien grew up in Birmingham same as me, and I lived just a few miles from Sarehole, the area of which is the inspiration of the Shire, especially the Mill. Around the city there are also the towers (I think, the water tower near Edgbaston Reservoir and the University clock tower) said to inspire the two towers in the story and of course the area of The Black Country to the north which is thought inspired Mordor (some thoughts on that here: Mordor, he wrote: how the Black Country inspired Tolkien's badlands ) .

My understanding is the Shire, and its industrialization at the end, reflected what he saw of Sarehole, many of the areas of modern day Birmingham were country villages that were quickly consumed by industrial Birmingham over the last few centuries and in Tolkiens time this would have been quite a rapid change I think.

Whilst the films missed a few things, some of the detail being kept was great, was especially pleased when the White Horses made an appearance at the fords flood to wash the Nazgul away, nice detail.

The Hobbit trilogy though....what a complete disappointment.

 

"The Scouring of the Shire" is a very real reflection that even the distant, small Shire was not immune to the outside forces that had ravaged much of Middle Earth, and are an analogue of Frodo's wounding (although the Shire came through its damage rather better than he did, in the end). Middle Earth's endures despite the harms inflicted upon her, but not the mortals who reside upon her.

 

You ain't lying, friend. Those films are just...sad and forlorn.

 

Pride has somehow gone from one of the seven deadly sins to a virtue?

 

Oops.

Add not proof-reading as a bad "trait".

 

I was just thinking of the Professor's Catholicism.

 

Aside from the “Why didn’t they fly an eagle over Mount Doom” question, my question about the movies is from Return of the King:

When Aragorn and others arrive at the gates of Mordor, they have horses. Then, a few minutes later, before the big battle at the gates the horses ARE ALL GONE.

Where the hell did they go? Yeah, yeah, the Fellowship sent them off before the fighting began. OK, I guess.

Honestly though, is that perhaps the biggest blunder ever made in a Best Picture winner?

 

The Scouring of the Shire has always worked well for me in the book to show how all four hobbits have matured and changed since they left, and how they are now leaders themselves - they don't need Gandalf or Aragorn popping up every time there's a problem.

I read The Hobbit and LOTR aloud to my son each night before bed over a long time; we finished up about a year ago now. Great memories I will always treasure. I hope one day he returns to the books on his own.

 

And cavalry is far more effective in a fight that foot soldiers. I never understood this either.

 

That makes the most sense I think amongst all the attempts to explain it.

But I would argue your point collapses when you look at the Hobbit - A great flock of eagles arrives to fight the Orcs at the Battle of the Five Armies, so clearly they are used to fight a battle. In LOTR it is also stated that the Eagles of the Misty Mountains helped the Elves of Rivendell and Radagast in gathering news about the Orcs.

If they were being called in to act as spies and as a fighting force that goes beyond the level of just a heavenly rescue doesn't it?

I'm a big fan so it doesn't really bother me but clearly this is a big plot hole that wasn't really thought through by Tolkien. Clearly they had a method at their disposal to transport the ring quickly.

 

Granted.

The Bo5A could be viewed as a 'rescue' of sorts??

I still think the Eagles would have refused though. Gandalf (as Maia) would have felt/known that if the request had been made by the Council to the Eagles, Manwe would have shook his head and said "This One is on you guys. I'm out - so no Eagles."

 

I like the solution above that Sauron monitors the Eagles, so stealth on the ground was the best strategy.

 

...interesting thread/discussion.
Nice to see some Tolkien on a music forum.
Thx folks!

 

I actually liked the Hobbit trilogy, not as much as the LOTR trilogy however.

 

The answer is: If they flew there on an eagle, the trilogy would be a novella.