Vintage Pioneer turntable speed issue--advice wanted

Pioneer was very clear about this in their owner's manuals, as I mentioned to Waxfreak above. One thing I should point out to people who buy those vintage Pioneer tables is this: be sure to only change speeds when the platter is turning to avoid stretching the belt, or possibly damaging it. If you don't have an owner's manual, try to find one online (try vinylengine.com ) as it's important to lubricate the platter and motor bearings every two months.

 

Thanx; I was unaware of all those facts except for replacing the belt, which I had a tech do. Original spares being incredibly expensive down here or downright unavailable led my tech replace it with generic belts, for which the lenght had to be deduced by naked-eye comparison. Guess the guy was aware of not touching it with bare hands and cleaning of the pulleys, but no way to tell. Anyway, it never worked out in the end.

All of that fuzz made DD yet more appealing to me.

 

Regas, Project, VPI etc. are all modern belt driven, and very accurate speed. Problems can be with vintage turntables. A lot of old belt driven turntables also has strotoscope, so a lot of safe choices.

Fringe, what would you reckon to be the best way to clean these surfaces, platter, pulley etc. Would a swamp or cloth with isopropyl be ok?

Also, anyone have experience with where to get the best belts for these Pioneers. I'm not sure those cheap ones from Amazon, Ebay are the best...?

 

Isopropyl and a strip of cotton or microfiber is ok, 70% or 91% are both ok.

If you have an older turntable, the pulley and platter can accumulate stubborn residue over time, which can come from airborne resins, cooking grease that hardens into a plaque-like solid, and/or a patina that builds up. The most effective cleaner for this is common automotive hand rubbing compound. (not the stuff for machine use) The compound must not contain any wax. Info on the label will usually indicate if the product contains any wax or silicone. The motor pulley is usually made of brass, and the platter aluminum. This method of cleaning is mechanical. The compound will not chemically react with these metals.

With the platter removed, smear a small amount of compound on a strip of white cotton cloth, such as from an old T shirt. Remove the stylus for safety, move the arm to spin the motor. The strip should fit between the rims of the pulley, allow it to spin against the cotton strip. Hold each end as if shining a shoe, but let the rotating pulley do the work. Apply light pressure. Be careful not to apply too much compound, since you don't want this stuff flying all over the place! The cloth will turn black. The pulley will turn bright amber. Clean any remnant of compound with isopropyl on a clean white cotton strip, until the cloth remains white. Then your pulley will be clean.

Do the same with the aluminum platter, except that gets rubbed by hand.

good luck, keep 'em spinning,
Steve VK

 

Thanks, ofcourse, great idea!

 

Both my Dual CS 5000 and my Onkyo (I forget the model #) are belt driven, but have quartz lock mechanisms to true speed. When the belt starts to go on the Dual, it won't reach a true speed, and, thus, the tonearm won't engage. Unfortunately, it's been my experience that you can only used Dual replacement belts, as generics won't work. And since Dual is out of business, they aren't the easiest things to locate!

 

Fortunately, there is still a supply of NOS belts, though that situation won't last forever. The same is true with idler wheels for their idler drive turntables. I have a 1229Q, that I really enjoy listening to. While not a high-end listening experience, it is very engaging. The biggest problem with generic belts is that they can be close in size, but not exact, which is no good. That's true of Pioneer as well. While their turntables will still play with a belt that's "close" in size, they won't play right, and comparing by eye to your existing worn belt, is not the right way to choose a replacement since you're comparing a worn belt to a new one; you'll get the wrong size. There are lots of places that carry belts for Pioneer turntables online, fortunately. If I had had access to the internet in 1990, I'd never have sold my PL-10.

 

I've got an idler wheel 1218. The torque on that is so weak I have to spin the platter by hand to get it going.

 

Sounds like it may need a new motor? Since you're a long-time member of this forum, I won't ask if the idler wheel is in good condition. My mom's 1963 Sears console stereo sometimes needs a push go get going, but that is because there is a flat spot on the idler wheel (which causes hideous rumble), and if it stops on that spot you have to give it a push to get going. I've been trying to find a replacement, but 50 year old parts for console stereos are hard to come by!

 

You can have the idler rebuilt. I just looked up someone who does this, and I think the price is reasonable. http://www.turntablebasics.com/idlerwheels.html
Also the idler may be turned if the flat spot isn't too severe. The size of the idler does not affect the platter speed, but must be able to engage the motor pulley and platter rim. A slight reduction in size (approx. .010 inches) should not affect proper contact and operation.

 

I also have a 1218. The problem is a glazed idler wheel. (The motor seldom goes bad) Oil can also find its way on the drive surfaces causing slippage. Normal operation can be restored by cleaning the pulley, idler and platter rim. If the idler is glazed, which it probably is, the glaze can be removed with #1000 to #2000 sandpaper. This should be done by an experienced tech, however, since it's critical to have a steady hand. Just a turn or two by hand will do the job, and the idler will remain perfectly concentric.

Breaking the glaze can be tricky too, since Dual idlers are not machined flat at the rim. They are curved to make a more positive contact to the cone shaped motor pulley.

Another thing to watch for on the 1200 series Duals is wear on the motor pulley. Eventually a groove will develop that causes speed instability, and/or jerky pitch increase or decrease when trying to adjust it. When the pulley becomes grooved, it must be replaced. It's usually the 33 1/3 step that wears since that's the most frequently used speed. You can find good motor pulleys, used or NOS on ebay. Whenever the platter is removed, it's always a good idea to clean and lube the platter bearing, and the idler bearing. The idler nylon retainer is a pain to remove and reinstall. (Nothing about servicing a Dual is easy)

 

That's great to know. I'll look into that on behalf of my mom, she's used that console for 50+ years with minimal maintenance. It's a marvel to me that it still works at all.

 

I've never done the servicing on my 1229Q, though I do have the service manual. I bought it from Bill at fixmydual.com, and I'm pretty happy with it, so if it needs servicing I'll likely send it to him, since I don't want to mess it up. I'd likely attempt a simple repair, that said. I did fix the arm lift mechanism on my Technics SL-DD22 a few years ago, but it was a very simple fix.

 

I share your console frustration. The C-200 cart. in my grandmother's GE console went bad, and I haven't been able to find a replacement that will work with that headshell.

 

It's amazing that those consoles from the '60s have lasted so long. My mom's has a "floating" cartridge, that I don't think I'd be able to replace very easily either, though needles are readily available still, thank goodness, since she still uses it. The last time a tube was replaced in the unit was in 1969!

 

Unfortunately, the GE cartridge is extremely susceptible to moisture, from what I've heard. Given that it died a few years after they moved it into their basement room, I'd say that's about right.

 

Contact Gary at the Voice Of Music. He is an amazing knowledge and parts resource for old ceramic cartridges. You will mostly likely have to retrofit a newer cartridge, but Gary has lots of great info on how to make that work.

He sells rebuilt idler wheels as well.

 

My repair guy, Ken, at Ken's Hi-Fi in Hendersonville, NC, knows of something he thinks would work, but he can't find it! He's in the middle of a renovation and addition of a music shop, so maybe it'll turn up.