Vinyl and types of distortion - can one tell them apart?

I listen to a lot of jazz on vinyl and once in a while I'll get a (used) record where I can hear a bit of distortion and break up, particularly on the trumpets. There are three main possible sources of such distortion:
1. cartridge issues (alignment - assuming the stylus is not worn, cartridge not able to track a record that's cut too hot),
2. groove damage,
3. distortion is already on the recording.

My question is how is it possible to determine with relative certainty which one am I dealing with? I buy mainly Japanese vinyl from the 70s-80s, only in NM condition.

 

I would add the phono stage not being able to handle it or being saturated. I am not sure you can tell them apart so easily, someone else might have a better answer. If there is grove damage by using a USB microscope and having enough experience looking at good and bad records you might be able to tell when the grove looks like it's been sanded down versus a very shiny undamaged one. Albums in visually good condition do not guarantee perfect sound, as you pointed out the distortion might be already on the recording. I find some cartridges are more prone than others to display distortion and more surprisingly the same cartridge might distort more or less in different turntables.
If in most cases all your records play well I would blame the records that don't. If most records have distortion then I would start looking somewhere else.

 

Some distortion - and I mean some - is helped by a good cleaning with a RCM.

 

Some is plainly baked in.
Try heading to YT and see if anyone else has issues on certain songs from different manufactures.
So far I have sib issues on OMD's Dazzle Ships-Silent Running, both UK and Japan JVC, same spots.

 

Good to know... I thought mine was just played a lot.

Cartridge issues, just play the problem spot back - if you can reproduce it that's likely a no
Groove damage, listen for any significant difference during the duration on multiple plays, and definitely clean if you can
Bad master - for me this stuff is obvious but, if the above do nothing it's this

 

I do clean records on an Okki Nokki and I certainly agree, the before/after difference in sound quality can be sometimes quite striking.
The situation that interests me the most perhaps is the following, and quite common: I get a NM record from Japan, clean it on the RCM and play it, it looks gorgeous, shiny and clean - and I hear distortion.

I usually check the Tidal HiFi version of that album to see if I hear it in the same places, especially on headphones. Sometimes I do, which to a certain degree closes the case.
Sometimes however, since the mastering is different, tamer, and perhaps I can hear a bit of distortion in the same places, but not as pronounced - then it is not as clear to me should I investigate my setup, should I look for another copy of the album or are both pointless in the case of that particular album?
This uncertainty is something I don't like and think too much about and I would love to be able to say which case is it. For instance, if I would have a needle drop of such a record, can some analysis of the waveforms give answers or at least indications what is really going on?

 

Assuming somebody did have the same pressing of the record and cross referenced, you'd still have issues with how the comparison drop got dubbed compared to your own. One thing I found out reading here as well even if a record is pristine looking, that isn't going to mean anything in some cases just due to heavy groove damage/pressing was poor to begin with. Granted I'm not the best person to ask however if this is really hard to get past in general, I'd listen to whatever the best copy you have is. There's some albums I own on LP but aren't my go to listen and, that's alright.

 

Agreed. I just am wondering if there is a more precise way of determining where should one invest their effort.

 

I can usually tell the difference easily, especially if I have a CD or FLAC copy of the album in question to check as a reference. Many used albums have groove wear and many old records have sibilance baked into the recording in the first place that you can hear plain as day on a well mastered CD.

I looked at your profile and saw you are using the MP-110 as your cartridge. Notwithstanding the internet hype on this cart, it's not the best tracker, period. Although I don't consider most jazz records difficult to track at all, that cart is going to have trouble with difficult passages and tight inner grooves on some records, no matter how well you align it. It's the nature of a fat .4 x .7 bonded elliptical stylus, period.

 

What's the title P.? Maybe someone here can cross check if they have it.

 

There are quite a few variables in play with respect to distortion on your vinyl records.

Having multiple cartridges with different stylus shapes (i.e., hyper-elliptical, fine line, Fritz Gyger, Micro Ridge, Shibata, etc.) with different load impedances on your phono stage depending on your cartridge is another way to determine the distortion with respect to handling hot cuts and groove wear. This is assuming that each cartridge is properly aligned and its stylus being clean.

Distortion already in the record depends on the condition of the master tape used in the recording, the pressing quality, or it's possible that it was added on purpose by the artist. Using the CD or digital version of the recording for reference can help determine that.

 

Thanks! My current cartridge is Denon DL-110 - I wasn't happy with the Nagaoka MP-110, as it was indeed sibilant and could sound harsh at times. The Denon is definitely much smoother, I aligned it very carefully with a protractor specific to my TT, based on the calculator at Vinyl Engine, and there is no sibilance or IGD. The records I have that the MP-110 had problems with were the new Tone Poet Cassandra Wilson, which is surprisingly difficult to track without sibilance distortion (there is a whole discussion on this in the Tone Poet thread), or a Japanese 1983 pressing of Lee Morgan's The Gigolo, which is cut quite hot and Lee's trumpet playing is quite aggressive at times. Both of these now sound very good with the Denon.

 

Thanks! So the particular title I started having doubts about is Duke Jordan's "Flight to Jordan", a 1983 Toshiba pressing Duke Jordan - Flight To Jordan
There is some distortion on Dizzy Reece's trumpet in many places - and I hear it on the Tidal version through headphones too, but to a much lesser degree and it made me wonder. If anyone has some experience with that particular title or pressing it would indeed be very helpful!

It might be the case that I am being too OCD about it... but I know one can virtually eliminate distortion with a bit of patience and proper equipment/setup, unless it is the vinyl itself or the recording. Between these options there might be sometimes a lot of wasted time and funds. I very much appreciate everyone's input on this!

 

I have a Ron McMaster CD of this album which AFAIK is basically a flat transfer off the tape. Can you pinpoint a particular section? I will check it if I remember and get back to you. It may just be the trumpet overloading the mic.

 

The Denon, while still a basic elliptical profile has a higher quality nude elliptical vs. your old Nagaoka. It should definitely perform better.

 

Great, thanks a lot! So I think the worst offender is the last track, Si-Joya. Dizzy Reece's trumpet enters at 3:01 (on the Tidal version) and it is completely fuzzy and distorted. On the LP it is also the last track, so the part most prone to have IGD damage baked in by being played previously with an improperly aligned cartridge, and that is what made me wonder if this is not actually the case. In any case, would be great to hear your opinion.

 

Checking it right now. Reece is stressing the mic a bit but it's not completely fuzzy and distorted as you say. I would suspect groove damage or your cart being pushed to the limit. Without testing the record in question myself I cannot say for sure.

 

Thanks a lot, I really appreciate it! So I just put the LP on, to check, and it actually doesn't sound as distorted as I remember it hearing two days ago... I did play a bit with antiskating in the meantime (I really hate that there is no single recipe for setting it!) and I listened to the Tidal version a few times, perhaps my mind got adjusted to the actual level of distortion on the recording.
Here's a crude sound clip, I don't have any way of doing a needledrop so I just recorded it with my tablet in front of the speaker Dropbox - sijoya.m4a - Simplify your life
Perhaps the whole issue was just in my head... (actually, too many things in audio are)

 

I listened to the clip but don't want to comment too much because it's hard to tell what's on the record and what's overloading the mic on your tablet. At any rate, if it sounds good enough for you, don't obsess over it. Just enjoy the music.

 

Well, I can't say I am, even if it sounds better than last time, that's the whole reason for this thread... and the whole difficulty with this particular album is that there is some overload on the recording itself and I feel a bit lost trying to determine if I should go back to e.g. realign my cartridge or get a different copy/pressing of the album. In any case, thanks again - I really appreciate your time and input!

 

@p.analogowy

I bought a 1983 Toshiba pressing yesterday and Dizzy Reece's trumpet is, indeed, distorted in several places throughout the album. But it's not completely fuzzy and distorted. It's a typical case of it being recorded too hot. It's a bit annoying, but I'm sure it's on the tapes unfortunately. I believe mastering could, potentially, mask it but not totally.

I know you had concluded that already, but I thought I'd chime in since I remember reading this thread a few months ago and it's the exact same pressing that made you open this thread in the first place.

 

Flight to Jordan is a great record. I haven't updated this thread but I do have a much better understanding of what is going on with this pressing. I agree that the trumpet is recorded too hot, but the main thing on the Toshiba is the mastering: the trumpet in the left channel is mastered a bit loud and the elliptical styli I was using at that time (Nagaoka MP-110 and later a Denon DL-110) did not handle it too well, leading to more distortion than just the one from the tape. Once I switched to a micro-linear stylus this was no longer an issue, the stylus could easily get through the louder parts.
Nevertheless, not so long ago I decided to get a King pressing for comparison and I have to say it is clearly better. First, the trumpet is not as aggressive in the left channel - it is much smoother, but there is no loss of presence, detail or tone and I am certain the elliptical styli I was using could handle this one. However as a bonus, Stanley Turrentine in the right channel sounds much more present and his tone is more natural. The King pressing is well worth seeking out!

 

Oh yes, I'm absolutely sure that the King sounds much better as that is the case with most if not all japanese Blue Notes. I prefer the Toshibas LNJ of all the Japanese pressings, but the Kings are not far behind and beat the 80s Toshibas. But this one is hard to get and I found the Toshiba for around €24 so I couldn't pass it up.

And now that you mention the stylus, I'm looking forward to try my copy out when I upgrade my cart. I have a Goldring E3 which is an elliptical so it probably behaves the same as your Nagaoka did.