Vinyl dynamic range questions

It was starting to sound like you were suggesting that I choose small label selections due to sound quality over performance. I do agree that one should get the best and/or only version available, but Sergio asked about our experiences, not the theoretical or pinnacle, and for the vast majority of classical music lovers and the titles available, the benefits of the CD over vinyl (including DR) are significant. What is being manufactured and how it’s being manufactured is actually more relevant.

 

If You're a Pynchon Fan

I read the whole article. He says he hears surface noise, he says it's ". . . quite audible on my system . . . ". Surface noise is audible on every turntable system I've heard, you could say it's an Inherent Vice of the medium. Surface noise is Noise, it's one of the variables that gets folded into the Signal to Noise Ratio.

Again, the OP's question is about dynamics. The answer is that LPs have problems with dynamics. The author of the article you quoted points to that fact within the article you are citing.

 

Actually this is what Sergio asked.

"The maximum dynamic range we can put on a vinyl record is around 60 dB.

CD (16bit), on the other hand, can achieve 96 dB dynamic range.

The dynamic range of human hearing is roughly 140 dB.

The dynamic range of music as normally perceived in a concert hall doesn't exceed 80 dB, and human speech is normally perceived over a range of about 40 dB.

Is this correct information?"


He's not asking for anyone's experience nor is he limiting vinyl to any particular genre or level of musical excellence. He's asking if 60 db is the maximum dynamic range for vinyl as a format. The simple answer is no. The more complicated answer is not even close when we are talking about what can be heard rather than what we are told by an overly simplistic way of looking at dynamic range.

Now for your comments

"for the vast majority of classical music lovers and the titles available, the benefits of the CD over vinyl (including DR) are significant."

That really depends on the individual classical music lover. As a classical music lover this is simply not my experience.


"What is being manufactured and how it’s being manufactured is actually more relevant"

I would agree so long as we include what *has been* manufactured. But we clearly disagree on where the chips fall for the classical music lover.

 

As I wrote earlier, this is not correct. One bit is reserved for the sign of each sample, so in reality, only 15 bits carry audio information, which means the maximum range is 90.

 

Again, not the case from my experience. Even those 35 minute per side DG LP's when mint play with as much aplomp and attackm dynamic strength that rivals that of most CD's. Medium sized orchestras like that Polish Chamber Orchestra bring a a level of dynamics, realism, timing and swing that you start to jump from your chair and feel like you are the conductor. Never had that happen to me from a CD, neither on any other LP.
Again TACET..AAA Tube Only rules...

BTW here is a snippet for those who are sceptic. The recording is not 100 % free of pops due to some dust I guess.two formats - LP sample lossless for download y, but for this topic best take the time to d/l the 14 mb...DivShare File - nd beethoven 7.m4a

 

Well, it's an interesting performance. After hearing that sample I'd want to pick up a copy. But probably not an LP. If you've got a RCM you can easily find out if those pops are simply dust or particles embedded in the vinyl. You did pick one of the loudest portions of the symphony, a section with comparatively little dynamic range. The start or end of the allegretto would tell us more about the LP's limits in dynamic range. The problem with LPs as regards dynamic range are in the quiet parts, where the surface noise increases each time the record is played.

 

I think that the surface noise comment is likely related to a poor analog rig setup or lower quality gear. On a nice rig properly setup with quality tonearm and cartridge, the LP surface noise should be minimal.

This is very important as background noise is directly related to perceived and actual dynamic range.

My Neil Young at Massey Hall LP is dead silent with the new cart. If the dynamics on that LP are lacking then I cannot tell.

 

In practice I've found that reproduced dynamic range at home is almost independent of source.. i.e. it's limited by your surroundings, and the ultimate loudness limit of your speakers and amp. The noise from source, whatever that is, seems secondary (in practice).

Headphones are different; dedicated listening rooms are different; audio shows where they seem to want to exceed 95dB or more are different.

The widest range I've heard on both vinyl and CD comes from the same recording; the 1980's Decca of Dutoit playing Ravel's Bolero and other works. Others in the series are similarly wide dynamic range. There were 'letters to the editors' of magazines where people found the dynamic extremes too much and sent their discs back (these are very well reviewed records). The recording of Bolero seems about right compared to a large scale live performance.. that means that if you can hear the drum at the start you'll be heading for the volume control before the end. It's an experience. Most recordings are scaled back in dynamics, either by the conductor/orchestra or the engineers. Tastefully, but still scaled back.

 

Good point MikeyH. We may be arguing over format capabilities when 90% of the time it will be due to recording and mastering quality.

 

Scott,
My initial post which you responded to (which I quoted Sergio) and my previous post were both in response to this post from Sergio [emphasis is mine]:

Fair enough.

Yeah, for classical music fans it’s hard enough to find titles on CD at retail, let alone vinyl.

 

This one?
Bolero and La Valse recording dates are 1982.

 

Amen!

Well, that's kind of mixed up, although maybe I'm not reading what you meant. Amp S/N is always quoted versus rated power, which is not how you listen. RESIDUAL noise quoted as decibels versus one watt would equate to what you would actually hear.

A 100 watt amp with 110 dB S/N would have noise at -90 dBW. So if your speakers had 90 dB sensitivity, the noise output from the amp would be at 0 dB. Maybe barely audible in a lab...

...but those numbers are very limited. You can't just say "hey, a living room is 30 dB, so I'll never hear the noise!" Because, the noise can have different directionality, different frequency content, and different character (i.e. periodic noises like data beeps leaking into the audio or helicopter rotors stand out from a white noise background)

 

Yep.. that's a recompilation, so I don't know if they adjusted anything. The first issue has a bullfight scene on the front, and is all spanish themed works..

Here's the LP:


The original CD has the same cover.

 

You cant ignore the physical properties of each medium.

Vinyl will always have noise and distortions, CD has no inherent noise.

 

I agree the DG recordings on vinyl sound fantastic, ive heard many years ago and they are great!

But ive never felt the urge to jump out of my chair, while listening to them as you have. The only time ive EVER jumped out of my chair was while listening to the 1812 overture on CD ( telarc ) because I was truly afraid of the dynamic range of that disc. Those damn cannons really go LOW and LOUD!

 

I notice you were careful not to say CDs have no distortion.

As for noise, that's not what I listen to, it's the music that matters. Since I find music on LP sounds slightly better than the best mastered CDs or CDs containing needledrops, obviously, the increased noise and distortion of vinyl doesn't diminish listening enjoyment. Thus, I figured out a lot time ago that raw dynamic range or signal-to-noise ratio numbers are really almost irrelevant when it comes to the enjoyment of recorded music.

 

You certainly can if we are talking about Stadium arcadium.

 

Yeah, thanks - that looks familiar.

I had a listening session of mostly classical music at a friends house in the late 80's. He had the much better setup and rig. I brought the CD I pictured (among others) with a modded Magnavox CD player and he had the vinyl you posted. He was a vinyl die hard, but started buying CD’s after that session.

 

Unfortunately one quickly learned that all CDs were not like that one....

 

I agree, on some music at some times, the vinyl "distortions" may actually make the music sound better, less sterile. Ive enjoyed music for many years on both media, and open reel, and even 8-track and cassette.

Classical was the only music type where the media seemed to really at times cut into the musics enjoyment. (( not just vinyl so much, but cd and ALL the ones ive listed ))

 

The Blind Men and the Elephant

Jay F, a regular poster in the Classical Corner, was engaged in another one of these LP contra CD food-fights a few months back. He had, in an oh, by the way fashion, mentioned that he had some Alfred Brendel LPs he'd like to send to anyone who asks, just for the price of shipping. I bit, right now I'm playing Brendel's recording of Beethoven's sixth sonata. I understand Jay's frustration—these discs are almost, but not quite. Brendel's playing is fine grained, the engineering, as far as I can tell, is fairly good. The level of surface noise is generally low. Problem, it isn't always low, sometimes the noise level goes up unpredictably. Is it possible that these discs are a late run from less than pristine stampers? Maybe. The host is the expert here on such matters and I would defer to his opinion. While it's possible that a pass through a RCM could clean up all these low-level disturbances the question is why the records don't come out clean from the sleeves in the first place, esp. considering that these are Dutch Phillips pressings, after all.

This same Jay F. also listed the Gold Seal box of Rubinstein's Chopin recordings for $15 and I snapped that up around the same time. The original session recordings are older than Brendel's mid-seventies cycle. But the background tape hiss inserts itself into my consciousness far less that the erratic surfaces of the Brendel discs, it's easier to drift off into reverie while listening to the CD of the Nocturnes than my LPs, there's fewer disturbances. At the same time, all the discs in this box sound veiled.

We all listen to music in different ways and we are listening for different sorts of things. For years I would listen to music mostly on Stax headphones. If you're listening to a pair of Advents driven by a Fisher 500C, your LPs are going to sound a lot different that hearing them through Stax Earspeakers driven by a dedicated J-Fet/Triode amp. And if you dig that Advent/Fisher combo, more power to you.

When I was recording orchestras and choruses and pianos and harpsichords, and viols and lutes and so on and so forth, I realized that digital recording obviously had flaws, but that it also was capturing aspects of the sound of live, unamplified music that got altered or blunted by analog recording. I hear some of that in Piano. CD usually sounds blunted and blurred in the upper regions, but sounds much more dynamic in the middle voices and has a greater overall sense of solidity. I only managed to get on the ground floor of high-bit recording, but instantly noticed the improvement, it was unmistakable. High-bit digital has progressed quite a bit since then. The SACD of Rubinstein playing the Chopin Ballades & Scherzos has more color and detail than the CD. What's more, I just noticed as I reached the end of a piece that I went to the turntable to turn the record over.

Ultimately, all these inflamed Analog v. Digital discussions fail to recognized that we audiophiles, as a general class of citizens, are not reliable witnesses. I'll include myself in that class. I'm the sort of listener who likes to sit right next to the musician, I want to hear them breath, I'll turn the pages of their scores and be happy to be sitting next to them. So I like listening to recordings in hard focus. I wore out those Stax Earspeakers, I like earbuds, I like the perspective in Glenn Gould's recordings, I like the perspective in the White Album. Listening in a way that exaggerates imperfections, as I do, did lead to me becoming a rather good audio editor. I get the sense our host has a more holistic approach to audio, being more concerned with the overall effect, which is obviously of great benefit to audiophiles everywhere.

I don't think this thread is irrelevant. The dynamic limitations of LPs will be of concern to some listeners, even if they aren't to others.

 

Quite a few of the Dutoit & MSO titles on London/DECCA from that period are really excellent discs - soundwise and performances.

 

some of the real world's most violently bombastic sounds

This is a 21-year-old column that the folks who run the Stereophile website thought should be disinterred. Emphasis is mine:

Unlike previous recording systems, digital audio has the S/N ratio, dynamic range, and frequency extension to actually do justice to the world's most cacophonous noisemakers. And a digital recording like Sonic Booms has the added attraction of demonstrating that a lot of ostensibly "digital-ready" loudspeakers and power amps are not quite "sound-effects–ready." No one really knows how many loudspeakers have gone to voice-coil heaven as a result of digital sound-effects, but I know personally of five people whose seemingly unflappable monster loudspeakers were reduced to smoking rubble by the first cannon blast of Telarc's legendary 1812 CD.

http://www.stereophile.com/recordingofthemonth/recording_of_december_1989_isonic_boomsi/​

Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .

 

They were recorded on Deccas 20 bit IVC one inch helical system