Vinyl Expectation Management

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by ThinWhiteDuke, Sep 20, 2022.

  1. Dillydipper

    Dillydipper Space-Age luddite

    Location:
    Central PA
    "Expect"? None. I get it sometimes, but usually each play is treated to a swipe of the ol' Discwasher beforehand. I have a large synth and new age collection, so there's a lot of opportunity for artifacts to show up. I never invested in a cleaning machine, I'm ol'-skool. Always tried to keep the grooves clear since college.

    And I don't get the turntable out all that often these days, there's no place for it in my current layout unless I have a specific purpose to haul it out.
     
  2. bluesky

    bluesky Senior Member

    Location:
    south florida, usa
    Pretty easy really...

    1. I don't buy used LPs unless the vinyl looks spotlessly pristine perfectly new. Period! I.E. looks like totally brand new & mirror shiny with no debris on the vinyl, usually equals totally quiet. If not totally quiet (clicks or pops) - it goes to the GW.

    2. If I buy from a seller on eBay, I start a conversation with them. They will then tell you the total truth on exact condition. That has really worked out for me super well on $30 to $70 used LPs.

    3. Also if there is 'one' super slight/light surface scratch, hold it up to a light and see if it's just on the surface or has gone into the groove. Looking with a magnify glass would even be better but I've never done that myself.

    That's my 'system' & it works really darn near perfect for me - 98% of the time. The only drawback is that there were at least 100+ great titled LPs that I didn't buy, for dirt cheap, because the actual vinyl wasn't 'pristine'. It may have played perfectly fine. Maybe I should of bought them anyway. I did buy one $80 used album with a surface scratch on it. It is totally silent, got lucky! Paid $15 or $20 for it if I remember correctly.

    4. Now the covers - I don't care if they look worn, split seams, crumpled corners, or whatever. I don't play the covers and none of my albums are for resale. I've even bought 'perfect vinyl' with totally trashed covers. Maybe someday you will find a perfect cover at the GW or SA for $1. Done that before too.

    5. Also to note: I never wash records - ever. Well, I did wash an Allman Brothers LP once in beer (quiet by accident) - it didn't work.

    Hope this helps!
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2022
  3. Victor Martell

    Victor Martell Forum Resident

    Right - should have qualified it - yes, I also get non-audiophile - the usual suspects - this forum is indeed a great resource to know what is out there. By usual suspects mean things like the recent 50th TAAB, the 2018 Animals (2022), the recent Roxies... and so on... Will prbly get the non-UHQR Steely Dans... but those are exceptions... in general, mostly audiophile releases.

    v
     
  4. AP1

    AP1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    TX
    Almost all new vinyl releases are cut from digital master. See latest story about MoFi. Simply try to find high-res transfers of music you want to hear and be happy. Vintage vinyl has its value for collectors, but that is the limit of it's use today.
     
  5. ThinWhiteDuke

    ThinWhiteDuke Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    What choice would you have liked to have clicked on if it existed? e.g. Reply back to the thread with a short sentence that you feel applies to the majority of your record collection playing quality experience...
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2022
  6. ThinWhiteDuke

    ThinWhiteDuke Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Yep I do see your experience as functionally equivalent to "growing up with vinyl" as you have managed to have the same experience and outcome as those of us who are older. I'm more fascinated by why you stuck it out when there were alternatives available to you?

    Loving the phrase "sisyphean task" as I agree and for me the pursuit of perfection robs me of the joy I experience with "good enough".

    If I'm honest with myself my vinyl collection is as much an homage to my youth and an attempt to explore stuff I couldn't afford to 30 years ago at the time as it is to general audio collecting. Plus I'm hoping for the occasional admiring glance from my mates when they pop round and we get to reminisce over a drink or two (I feel some kudos in owning stuff on vinyl that you just can't get in any other format despite the fact my kids don't give a damn!). I like playing at being a DJ. Plus I genuinely suspect the constraints of vinyl are actually pleasing to my brain due to it being trained with so many happy memories. (I can't stand the sound of digital compression artefacts nor the sound of auto-tune and to me they snap me out of enjoying a track if I hear them no matter how good the song). But I'd be mad to claim that the limitations of vinyl haven't been superseded by digital especially when it comes to crackling, clicks and pops.
     
  7. ThinWhiteDuke

    ThinWhiteDuke Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Not sure this is a truism, for example there are many many EDM, Trance, Custom Mixes, even Disco tracks that can only be purchased on Vinyl - you can't legitimately own quite a notable portion of pop culture from the late '70's through to the late 2010's without Discogs and a good deal of searching for the vinyl media those tracks were only pressed to. In fact just yesterday I spent hours searching through online forums and discos for a track that is only available via Youtube as a boot leg and on a dodgy Russian compilation CD that Discogs won't sell you probably because it violates a number of copyright laws yet it is widely acknowledged as a mix that is a 'banger' and certain to get the dance floor moving. I'd pay decent money if I could find a copy of the record it was initially pressed to for DJ's to play in clubs back in 2004.
     
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  8. ThinWhiteDuke

    ThinWhiteDuke Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Yep I agree, I own several hundred records now and voted similarly. Was difficult to come up with some definitive statements for a limited selection multi-choice poll but I needed some simple sentences that people could select as generalisations about their experiences. I think the list is good enough for my purposes which is to demonstrate to new comers to the hobby that a certain amount of tolerance is needed with the medium and this is not only 'ok' but to be expected. Once you've got money to throw around on the hobby then you can achieve much higher levels of quality but the goal shouldn't be to achieve digital levels of quality (impossible) but rather some other intrinsic goal (what ever personal goal that might be to the individual concerned. Mine is to impress girls with my mad DJ skills! ...joking, no one is impressed by me any more :D but my family do pretend to be kind when my audio disease comes up in conversations...)
     
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  9. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    No crackles or pops here. It's partly buying really clean copies- I buy 10/1 used, often old pressings- much from the '70s. Sure I buy Tone Poets, the occasional reissue, but I've got the basics covered on rock, classical and probably jazz. So, I'm after niche stuff and I want it to play silently so I can hear as much original information from the grooves as possible.
    The system I play this back on evolved from around 2006, but I still have a fairly good representation of the system I had in 1975, which was state of the art then and is still a joy to listen to.
    I have a lot of records.
    I've spent a lot of time learning about cleaning and preservation.
    And thus, am in a good place. If there is a record I like, I buy it.
    As to QC, I've sent a few things back over the years but it ain't about recreating some "Dazed and Confused" vibe through playing beat up old copies. I'm a geezer at this point and enjoy it.
    My expectations are high and are satisfied within reason. There are times when, no matter how good the system or program material, you can hear behind the veil or see the guy wires or man behind the curtain. I don't let that deter me. I've done enough to make it get real on a lot of "regular" non-audiophile recordings where the instruments sound real. I don't tend to play at bombastic levels. To recreate the punch of a kick drum in a club, you need to recreate an explosive effect, which has different demands at different frequencies- it isn't just bass or loud that makes it seem real. The harmonics are key. Preserving them on playback is essential but not all recordings convey this.
    I listen for enjoyment, not to impress myself. So I rarely put on a record that is just meant for sonic awe.
    That's enough!
     
    Jim0830 likes this.
  10. DrZhivago

    DrZhivago Hedonist

    Location:
    Brisbane Australia
    Those 8 who voted 1st option. I do not believe you! :D You must have a very, very small record collection or you are almost deaf. :D
     
  11. Mr.Sneis

    Mr.Sneis Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    I default to expecting some noise in most cases but have been pleasantly surprised on occasions.
     
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  12. ThinWhiteDuke

    ThinWhiteDuke Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Ok I can see how you are achieving your goal, with brutal rejection of any item / selection that doesn't meet Mint standards. I'm not that discerning and have settled for VG to NM for my second hand records (with a strong preference for NM if at all possible but music takes priority over quality for me) and of course expectation of Mint for brand new.
     
    bluesky likes this.
  13. Oscillation

    Oscillation Maybe it was the doses?

    This poll presupposes that all your records are of the same quality, which is highly unlikely. My records run the gamut of the suggested responses, and I assume I am far from alone.
     
    patient_ot, tkl7 and Jim0830 like this.
  14. ThinWhiteDuke

    ThinWhiteDuke Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Perhaps like Bluesky the remaining 7 would care to comment on their regime and curation practices?

    To achieve "My records are perfect, I never ever experience crackling, clicks or pops etc." probably seems amazing to mere mortals like the other 113 of us (and counting...):D
     
    DrZhivago likes this.
  15. Morbius

    Morbius Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brookline, MA
    My world is not so vacant that I have to live vicariously on SHF. I never thought of counting them but there's got to be at least several hundred in there plus more under the stereo. Unfortunately, as you can see, I'm running out of room and my partner won't let take up any more space with them. Besides any more record shelves could have a serious negative affect on the acoustics in this small room. The Ornette Coleman box arrived on Tuesday, and I played The Empty Foxhole yesterday morning which I thoroughly enjoyed and not a spec of noise. Oh, and I can hear a pin drop!

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    I'm in the "Clean all your records before you play them for the first time" camp. Whether they are new or dug out of an old pack house. A good cleaning, (doesn't have to be with an expensive RCM) will get the records as good as they can be. Then you go from there. Pops and clicks should be eliminated as they are normally caused by particles in the groove. New records often need a few plays eliminate them as there are sometimes "burs" left over from the pressing. So don't assume that some pops/clicks on a new record are there forever.

    But then there are noisy records. The ones where you have a constant sound running throughout the album. I'd attribute that to poor workmanship or materials at the pressing plant, or groove damage done by the previous owners. Obviously the constant noise riding on top of the music means tossing it. But if the noise is instead sitting under the music then my tolerance level is much greater. Sometimes the only time you will even hear that is between tracks or if you are sitting in front of your speakers listening with a predetermined expectation of hearing it.

    I would say my expectations and acceptance levels are greatly affected by the source of the music. If it's an expensive new recording tolerance is lower than a 5o year old record in which case I'm much more forgiving.

    But again, separate pops/clicks from surface noise. Almost all pops/clicks can be eliminated (until a new particle finds it's way into the groove post cleaning) when you clean your records but constant surface noise, while sometime caused by a dirty record is often something entirely different, more often a result of damage done either at the plant or in the home.
     
  17. DrZhivago

    DrZhivago Hedonist

    Location:
    Brisbane Australia
    I clean (vacuum cleaner) all my new/old records before playing. Cleaning records unfortunately will only get you so far. I am amazed that one can either have the equipment or sheer luck of not getting bad/average pressing these days. Unless. You are getting rid of all records that exhibit even the smallest amount of noise/crackle/pop.

    Regards
     
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  18. Jim0830

    Jim0830 Forum Resident

    I saw this thread right after it first went up and I have been following it ever since. I have resisted commenting and getting sucked down the rabbit hole. I realize the OP wants a meaningful discussion, and I respect that. However this is a topic that has no simple and easy answer. There are 10s or 100's of threads on SHF about some of the things I mention. I will try to keep my thoughts concise because it is just such a broad topic.

    Like everything in life it is about choice. Vinyl playback involves making decisions about budget, expectations, gear, quality of the LPs you buy, record cleaning methods, proper storage methods, how you handle your records, how you deal with static, the environmental conditions. in your listening space and how and where you will be listening to records. Some of these elements often involve a trade off between time spent (your labor) and money. If you are willing to do more labor yourself, you can save more money. Conversely if you have the willingness and ability to throw money at a problem, often it will go away. Enough said in general, very complex topic depending on your needs and expectations.

    As for me I have 2,060 albums. I have about 800 dating from the when I started in this hobby the 60's, 70's and 80's. I always took good care of my records, so they all are in great condition and sound about as good as the did back in the day. I stopped buying records in the mid 80's and went to CD's first, followed by Digital Files and now streaming. I still listen to these sources. In 2017, after a 30 year absence, I returned to buying records. I At the same time I also unexpectedly inherited a large sum of money from my parents estate. My wife and I had our retirements covered. With her blessing, I decide to put some of this money toward my AV system. As part of that I bought a new turntable. For the first time in my life, I could throw money at the system to get to the listening experience I wanted. If spending a little more money got me a noticeable improvement I could do it. As for records I could throw money at many of the inherent problems and trade convenience and ease of use for price. Specifically for LPs I got a Klaudio UCM, an Ultrasonic stylus cleaner, a Sugar Cube click and pop remover. I re-sleeved all records not having an anti-static inner sleeve. Lately I tend to buy a lot of audiophile or high quality new pressings. If I buy used, I buy VG+ or better. Every record going on my turntable for its first play gets cleaned with my UCM.

    For me vinyl played through speakers in my system is often as quiet as any other source with no clicks or pops. That probably represents 85% of my records. There are a few that were just noisy pressings with sub par pressings and vinyl. There are a few with ticks and pops. Vinyl is my listening method of choice for critical listening in my home.

    So managing expectations is a matter of how much time and money people can devote to this hobby. Everyone is different in how much time, money and labor they are willing to devote to getting decent quality vinyl playback. That is what this board is all about. Discussing the various options.
     
  19. Pete Norman

    Pete Norman Forum Resident

    I have many beat up old 45's from the 60's on wards...maybe it's just me,but the crappy noisy playback just adds to the 'vibe' and takes me back. Except maybe those
    horrible styrene injection moulded ones which chatter like hell due to the top of the groove being folded in and hitting the stylus..
     
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  20. WMTC

    WMTC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    I'm 20 and have been listening to vinyl since I was just a year or two old. I don't mind a bit of crackling at all. It's just part of the medium! Could I spend a whole heck of a lot more to get silent vinyl? Sure! But considering I paid $1 for a nice album and could pay $12 for one with a bit less surface noise... For me personally, diminishing returns start to kick in, and real quick!

    I don't think a lot of the "new kids" have unreasonable expectations considering many of my friends are using Crosley Cruisers and didn't even know not to handle the playing surface of their records before I told them... I'd say that's probably the bigger issue with new kids: a lack of knowledge with handling and vinyl care. Even needle replacement. Crucial stuff that many of my peers aren't aware of.
     
  21. _cruster

    _cruster Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tacoma, WA
    Was thinking same - the responses break things into unrealistic absolutes.

    I have close to 1,000 records. A lot were purchased used in the '90s and '00s, when reasonably-priced used vinyl was still a thing. I don't spend money on reissues (not much of what I listen to is really subject to that process anyway), and I do still buy brand-new things all the time. I have a reasonable system, take care of my stuff, and clean records when they come into the house. I might have a few used records that had a rougher life before I got them, such that I can hear surface noise in the lead-in, maybe a little bit between songs, but...a funny thing happens when I sit and listen to them, which is that, for the most part, I don't notice the noise - I'm too busy enjoying the music.
     
  22. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    Ditto!
     
  23. elvisizer

    elvisizer Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Jose
    lol 9 people in the survey straight up lying
     
  24. arem

    arem Forum Resident

    As many people have said, vinyl playback is always going to be a compromise, and only you can decide what is important to you. If you love certain genres, like vintage reggae, funk, or rockabilly you are never going to find pristine original copies of 90% of that stuff so you learn to live with it and in some cases appreciate it. When I hear a digital version of a song like Skull Snaps "It's A New Day" it just doesn't sound right super clean. With other genres I'm definitely pickier about condition, but there's a tipping point between the condition I'll accept and the price I'm willing to pay for a given record. I also use a Parks Audio Puffin phono preamp which does a phenomenal job of reducing light tics and pops.
     
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  25. Oscillation

    Oscillation Maybe it was the doses?

    that very same funny and wonderful thing happens to me too!
     
    lazydawg58 likes this.

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