I have not remeasured the internal pouch temp, nor have I done any listening. As for temp, the docs do say that the temp will vary around the pouch, so I would need to be consistent with probe locations. And I surely need to stand down and listen to the LPs I have flattened before getting too far into my collection. I am not too worried since I thus far have not needed excessive heat or duration. Maybe this evening.
Quick update…4 for 4. 2112 is now as flat as a pancake. Two hours, medium setting, and let it cool for a couple hours more. And, it sounds great. Got a bit of surprise when I was checking it for flatness. Side two seemed to have an excessively wide dead wax area with some odd marks, yet they did not seem random. And there was a locked groove after the last track, so the tone arm stayed stationary. Long story short, unknown to me when I bought it, this is the hologram version. Shine a light in the dead wax of side two and you are greeted with a spinning 5 point star. The 12 Months of RUSH Continues with the Release of a Special Hologram Edition of 2112 on Vinyl | Rush.com
I've been having an email conversation with John from Vinyl Flat, since I have had some issues with the product. To summarize, the first heating unit I got was very inconsistent over time, and often wasn't getting to the 125 threshold, even on high, so he sent me a new one. The new heating unit is more consistently hot, but I should note that the temperature still varies between sessions, and varies a bit over the course of a session as well. I've had medium readings everywhere between 133 and 155. Low comes in at 122 to 140. However, those high and low temps are the outliers, with most readings coming in at around 136 for medium, and 130 for low. Anyway, here is what he said in his most recent message: Well, if you always start at 2 hours (or even 1 hour if you're conservative) in the pouch and gradually increase the heating cycle time, per the instructions, it is pretty difficult to ruin a record, even if there is a wide temperature variance. I would say the most common mistake customers make is to have success at say (pick a time!) 4 hours and then they start the next record at 4 hours (because that worked before!) and then that record is ruined because that particular record only needed 3 hours to flatten at that same exact temp due to the chemical composition of the record, or, because the pouch was heating 10 degrees warmer vs the previous record, etc. In a sense, it doesn't really matter because there are so many variables involved. But, that said, the one thing you can control is time in the pouch and that can basically eliminate all the other variables I've mentioned. Every record is completely different (chemical composition, type and degree of warp, weight, etc.) plus with temperature variations, the only way to control the outcome is to always start each and every record at 1 or 2 hours, gradually work your way up time-wise and monitor the results. (This technique holds true if the temperature is perfectly stable or variable because each record is also completely "variable".) So, if there was a perfectly stable temperature source in the 130-ish F range that we could sell for a reasonable price, there would still be a wide variance of flattening times from record to record. So basically, you need to take the temperature every time you do a session, since inconsistent temperatures over time are normal (how inconsistent though? I am going to ask him if the ~20 degree range I'm seeing is acceptable). Also, and as we all know, vinyl composition and type of warp also make a big difference, so as he says, time is the only variable you have complete control over. So to be on the safe side, you have to always start with short session times and work up from there (although there are a lot of people on here testifying that they do longer times as a default and still don't ruin records). All the temperatures that I gave above are taken without the VF in the pouch. Interestingly, I've noticed that temperature readings tend to be higher with the VF in the pouch (even though other people on these forums have described the opposite happening)--by which I mean if I take a measurement before putting the VF in, and then do another measurement say 20 minutes after putting it in, it will be higher the second time. It could just be that the thermometer is touching or is very close to the metal when I'm doing these readings, causing it to come in higher than the ambient temperature in the pouch, of course. I should also point out that temperatures can vary widely depending on where in the pouch you measure.
In the interest of science, I am running a test now with two probes connected to my wireless grilling system (iDevices, now owned by Weber). I am testing w/o the VF in the pouch, as instructed in the documentation. My initial run will be at medium, but I will also test again at low. Initial results after 20 minutes, 1 probe stabilized at 155, the other 150. FTR, I am now 5 for 5. I have a pressing of Spinal Tap that is maybe 5 years old. It had a severe edge warp. My TT could track it, but it made me crazy watching the arm move up and down. A 2h session at medium (I did not measure the temp), got me maybe 70% there. After an over night cool, I did a 2h15m session at medium. Perfection.
after keeping up with this thread here I think i'm finally going to pull the trigger on this and get the VF. I have way too many warped records that it's becoming unbearable.
Latest update. My test at a low setting showed that the probes stabilized lower than the medium test, so 140/150. I do note that it appeared that the system either cycled off completely or throttled back at as the temps dropped a good 10 degrees after about 30 minutes, but then game back up. My probes were not 100% in the same spot, and given that they are designed to make sure you don’t overcook your steak, we aren’t talking lab grade stuff here. I have no knowledge of how the pouch is actually controlled, but this is heating pad/electric blanket tech here so precision is not expected. All that said, I am satisfied that the device is able to hold temperature in a suitable range for the task at hand. I would also expect that even with some variance from the pouch controls, the record may not actually see those swings if they are short duration. The VF plates are pretty stout, and I would expect a fair amount of thermal inertia, so once the plates and the temperature between the plates is stable, it will likely stay there for a while. I don’t plan to do any more testing. The system works, and has far exceeded my expectations. Money very well spent.
I have owned the Vinyl Flat and Groovy pouch for several years and Used it to flatten many records. I fortunately have not had any issues With negatively affecting my records. I was initially hesitant to spend the money on one, thinking I didn’t have many records that needed it. However, once I owned it, it has been used much more than I thought it would be. I generally set it on medium and go 2 hrs, let it cool and if not flattened to my satisfaction, repeat for 2.5 ect. I have even forgotten about it only to wake up in the morning anxious to see the damage of my mistake, only to find everything is good. I personally don’t bother with temperature. Medium and go. Keep it simple. With the price of vinyl these days, it certainly has paid for itself. Not perfect on edge warps, but def improvement. Hope this helps. I recommend them.
I need to walk back some of reported results. All my records have improved, but not as much as I thought due to my method for evaluating the before/after results. I am running a Technics 1500c with with the stock mat. My evaluation was to simply put the record on the mat and turn on the table while watching the outer edge. Flip the record, and check again. All well and good but not as revealing as it could be. I have a KAB clamp that includes a washer to place over the spindle when using the stock mat. What that does is elevated the record due to the fact that the label is no longer sitting in the concave depression of the mat. The washer makes it easier for the clamp to work, but also elevates the record making it easier to see if the edge is truly flat, but I did not have it on the mat when I was checking for flatness. Once I put the washer on the mat and looked at one of my flattened records, it showed that it was not as flat as I thought. Bottom line here is I think it best that I just STFU for a bit while I refine my process.
Thanks the update. I guess you probably just need to add another cycle to get the extra flatness required but should hopefully get near to perfection. Please keep us posted and thanks again for you findings in helping everyone out! cheers, Vin.
Yeah I find that it's really hard to judge warps without actually starting the turntable up and putting the needle to the groove.
Sounds like you've had a good experience, but it is worth noting that the pouches are not always consistent with regards to temperature. I get a range of ~25 degrees (133-158) on medium and ~20 degrees (119-140) on low, and because I didn't realize how high medium could get, I ruined a record last week. I've done sessions overnight and not had any effect (positive or negative), but I've also ruined records in much less time. It sounds like your pouch gets to a consistent temperature every time, but unless I get a more stable heating unit, I will need to check the temp every time I start a session.
Why is it so difficult to make a consistent heating pouch?!?! One would think given the impact this can have on LP's and the potential for damage, that a reliable and consistent heating device would be made before going to market... Just a thought....
I share your frustration. The Vinyl Flat people (who have been very helpful and good about answering all my questions) have basically said that a heating unit that got to a precise temperature every time would need to cost much more, which I guess is why the next-cheapest record flatting devices are in the thousands, not hundreds, of dollars. They also stress that you should start with a one- or two-hour session and take the temperature before putting the record in the pouch, every time, to be on the safe side. Still, I feel like the two units I've gotten are more inconsistent than they should be, judging by some other responses on this forum--most people seem very happy with the VF and haven't talked about wild temp fluctuations. Then again, I don't think most of them are actually measuring the temp every time they put a record in, and some of them may just have cooler-heating pouches (every one is different) and so haven't ever gotten over the threshold that would destroy a record. Ultimately, if I take the temperature every session and start at an hour or two, it should work out OK, but the whole thing is definitely more trial-and-error than I thought it would be.
I just got the vinyl flat and pouch today and i'm testing my first record right now. The instructions (multiple papers) are a little confusing. One says to start out at like 2 1/2 hours and increase time by 15 minutes. Another says to start out at 60 min and increase by 30 minutes etc (I might be getting the #s wrong here). Anyway, i'm starting out at 60 minutes and will try to increase time from there.
I hear you and thanks for the feedback. Not sure how much more it would cost to have something more reliable/predictable but I personally would be happy to pay an additional $2-300 to have something that was accurate and more dependable…still would be a lot cheaper than the other options/solutions out there…
I hope you pull some flattened vinyl out of your Flat! I find it to be a very satisfying experience to flatten a wavy record, really suits my OCD. I believe the difference in instructions are due to the fact that the heating elements have changed over time, and apparently the instructions have not. My understanding is that the original heating element had 2 settings- "on" and "off". With those units the suggested approach was to start at 60 minutes. With the newer units, that have "low", "medium", and "high" settings, the idea is that you determine which setting gets you in the desired range using the included thermometer and then start with a 2 hour cycle at that determined setting. After that initial cycle you can add 15-30 minutes to each subsequent cycle as per the results you are, or are not, seeing and your comfort level with the whole process. Maybe I got lucky with the unit I have but mine seems to be fairly consistent and I've found a lot of success at the 2-1/2 hour mark. My pouch hovers around 136 F on "high" after a 30 minute preheat, w/o the Flat inside. I haven't had an opportunity to measure the temperature of the Flat/Pouch in use as rain_king requested. I still intend to do that, I just haven't found any other wavy records in my collection recently. Good luck, be patient, have fun.
Thanks for the feedback and very helpful. So is it a prerequisite to pre-heat the pouch for 30 minutes before putting the vinyl flat in the pouch? Sorry, but I don’t remember this being a step in the process - does it actually take that long to get to that heat level? Cheers, Vin.
In post #42 of this thread I attached a low-fi picture of the instructions included w/ my Flat/Pouch. In step #3 it says to turn the pouch on to your determined appropriate setting and check the temperature after 20 minutes, adjusting the temperature at that point if necessary, and then adding the Flat (w/ record to be flattened) to the Pouch. I've always preheated my Pouch by itself for 20-30 minutes before inserting the Flat and that has worked well for me. Caveat- my pouch struggles to get above 135 F and part of my thinking is that when I insert the cold steel plates of the Flat, the Pouch temp probably drops quite a bit. I figure if I can get the Pouch good and stable, and quickly insert the Flat (to minimize temp loss) then the less time it will take to affect the vinyl I wan to flatten. I even leave my Flat sitting on top of my Pouch while it's preheating (for 10-15 minutes) to take the chill off of it. I think you have to experiment w/ your Flat/Pouch and see what works best for you. There certainly seems to be some variability in the temperature of the heating elements (they're just everyday heating pads after all) and then environmental factors will also contribute as well as the composition of the record you're trying to smash. Lots of variables, best to ease in and start w/ records that can be easily replaced or are unimportant until you get a feel for how yours works. All the best!
Yeah it would still be cheaper than the other options but to be honest, I probably wouldn't pay $500 even for something super precise. Even spending ~$200 for the VF system felt like a big expense to me, and I thought what I was getting WAS something more or less precise. Then again, I'm thinking that this second heating unit I got is probably defective, since other people on this forum have talked about getting basically consistent readings at a given setting. I am thinking of just buying a cheap heating pad on Amazon or somewhere and testing it out. If I can get one with only a few degrees of fluctuation, I think I'd be pretty happy with the whole system.
The instructions do say to heat the pouch for 20 minutes and do a temperature reading to find the setting that gets to 125-150 degrees, but 1) it's somewhat ambiguous as to whether this means to do that every time, or just the first time you use the VF, and 2) it's unclear whether the point of doing this is just to find the right setting for your particular pouch or whether pre-heating makes the system work better. To be honest I don't think most people who have success with the VF are actually doing a pre-heat every time, but I could be wrong.
Good question and point made. I guess if the heating was consistent every time, you would only have to do it once to understand at what heating level setting gets you to the 125-150 degrees. I guess it may be a question for the Vinyl Flat support to confirm whether it needs to be done every time and if pre-heating is also advised to be done for 20 minutes prior to inserting the VP with LP. Cheers, Vin.
I just finally placed my order so will join in with feedback once I am up and running - In the meantime, I reached out to Vinyl Flat to get some feedback on the pre-heating requirements and whether its something that has to always be performed before use, or if its just something to do in order to get an understanding of the heat being generated for the pouch for the particular level setting. Will advise once I hear back... Cheers, Vin.
My first round at 1 hour on my first record didn't work so now i'm going for 2 hours. I have it on low setting and i'm getting pretty consistent temp of right at 125F-ish. I know this is right at the low end so should I bump it up to medium?
I just finally placed my order so will join in with feedback once I am up and running - In the meantime, I reached out to Vinyl Flat to get some feedback on the pre-heating requirements and whether its something that has to always be performed before use, or if its just something to do in order to get an understanding of the heat being generated for the pouch for the particular level setting. Will advise once I hear back... Cheers, V I would try at 2 hours and see how you get on. The 125f may be a little too low but as you are now increasing from 1 to 2 hours, it may be enough. Again, it also depends on how bad the warp is and type of LP. From what I have read from the folks who have given some really good feedback, you want to be around the 135f mark if I am not mistaken and baking for 2 hours - so you may be a little on the lower end which is why your are not seeing any changes.
