Vinyl Grading -- thoughts

A few thoughts regarding vinyl grading...

1. Visual-only: I get it -- if you are a dealer with a large stock, it is not feasible to play everything. But IMHO, a quick needle-drop can improve grading accuracy immensely. If warping affects the play, you will hear/see this immediately. If a "near-mint" record has surface noise, you will hear this right away. In my experience, if the first track has constant crackle, the whole LP usually does, too. I'm tired of getting mint/unplayed records that cause the tone arm to jump due to warpage.

2. I once bought a record advertised as near-mint, playing quietly -- yet when I played it it had constant snap, crackle, and pop. When I complained to the seller, the response was, "Well, what do you expect from a 50-year-old record?" I have always read that a record's grade has absolutely nothing to do with age -- no allowances should be given for it. A VG record should not be upgraded to NM because it is 50-years old.

What do others think?

 

1. I don't disagree, but the problem is the same as visual grading- subjectivity. A needle being dragged along a groove is going to produce some surface noise- when does that become obtrusive? What does 'playing quietly' mean? In comparison to what?

But yeah, IMHO a record advertised as 'near-mint' should be flat, and play with minimal noise.

2. Frankly that's BS- the age of the record has nothing to do with it.

There is of course a difficulty with sealed records in that you [and indeed the dealer] can't check the condition without breaking the seal, thereby reducing the record's value.

 

I have never seen nor have I owned a MINT record, so this grade should not be used.
for accurate vinyl grading you need 3 things, in my opinion:
criteria should be known and understood to both seller and -potential- buyer
seller should be trustworthy and seller's pedigree should be traceable
seller should have a turntable and play/own records

 

.......point being that back when records were what everyone bought, a lot of the ones bought brand new weren't what is now classed as Mint- they had a corner bump or a paper scuff. I remember that Virgin Records used to put security tags between the inner sleeve and the vinyl, and usually scuffed the record getting them out..........

 

Well, I for one is 100% with you on all accounts!!

 

Yes, plus in Holland a lot of the shops had the sleeve on display and the record behind the counter.....yikes! This way the sleeve always ended up creased and god knows what happened to the record...

 

Yeah, come to think of it, I remember that practice

 

1) I can understand if a seller has many records that they use a visual grade only. But with so many records how accurate is that visual grade going to be?? I'm convinced that many sellers have a quick 10 second look on each side and then grade. I doubt they even grade in proper light because I've received records where the light in my office revealed scratches as soon as I pulled the record out. They would be impossible to miss unless these sellers were lying when they said "No marks". So either they're lying or not taking the time to grade.

2) That seller lied. Plain and simple. If he said it played quietly that indicates that it was played IMO. If he didn't play and said it played quietly he's lying. His response shows how little he knows about grading records. I agree, a records age bares no relation to grading the lp. You might say something like "Wow great condition for it's age" but that's just making a remark as it is surprising when you find a 50 year old record in almost mint shape and not grading i.e. "It's scratched to all hell like you would expect a 50 year old record to be, which means it's mint for it's age"

 

According to one old grading system, if the record sounds even remotely like bacon frying or popcorn popping, it's F/G at best, although my tolerance for surface noise is quite liberal.

 

If one is asking top dollar for a record it had better be played to determine if it is worth the asking price.

 

The grading seems to not include warping. I hate warped records and technically I can buy a Mint record and it doesn't even touch the platter. In my world a warped record is VG.

 

I can live with slight warp -- I have many LPs where the tone arm slowly and gradually moves up and down with no effect on sound. But in the last month for the first time in my life I received records with warps that made the tone arm jump like a frog.

 

If a seller only visually grades a record, he/she should have a good return policy.

 

Yes -- luckily I haven't had any issues with returns, it's just a PIA.

 

It is sooo subjective. I stopped buying off Ebay because the last album I bought I could have used for a frisbee it sounded so bad. The hassle of having to return them is just not worth it anymore.

 

The best policy for bad grading is for the buyer to just keep the record. One buyer from the UK forgot to take my first pressing Gull Judas Priest - Sad Wings of Destiny out of the jacket before he packaged it (he told me he would). It showed up badly frayed and apologized when I emailed him about it. Free NM vintage record!

 

As a seller, I personally would never grade a warp to be Near Mint (NM), but it could be VG+ if it still plays well. I would certainly mention it if I noticed it no matter how it's graded.

I've done a lot of visual grading, but mostly those are for albums that I'm selling for less than $5.

BTW, I'm not a dealer, I 'm just a guy with too many albums, but I still don't want to put on every album I'm trying to get listed.

 

Last week I bought a copy of Van Morrison's Veedon Fleece on discogs. Media was described as VG+ (the lowest grade I'll buy online) but the description actually said "VG++ vinyl". As soon as I pull the record out, I notice obvious scratches on both sides. I proceeded to play it, and the scratches sound as ugly as they look. I sent a message to the seller and he replies, saying he'll send me a return label and issue a refund upon receipt. I then check and sure enough, the seller has other neutral and negative feedback regarding inaccurate grading. I guess it was my fault for not checking that before buying.

I offered to send the seller a picture but they assured me that they have pictures of every record they've mailed out and that they actually play tested this one and didn't notice any problems. He said rather than going back and forth with our "opinions," I should just send it back. I was just annoyed that this person wasted my time, and that I'll have to wait another week and a half to get my $25 back. Here's the types of scratches I'm talking about:



I'll be leaving feedback - not to be malicious, but to warn future buyers. If I were given a refund without being asked to send it back, I'd continue my hunt for a better copy, and leave positive feedback, chalking it up to an honest mistake.

 

I won't say that I've stopped, but I now view online sellers as a last resort for used vinyl. There is no substitute for inspecting a record with your own eyes and ears. My experience is that sellers tend to over-grade. Some of this is due to poor grading skills and some is just a plain lack of honesty.

Grading is indeed subjective, but I wonder how many sellers take the time to follow the grading advice from Goldmine:


"Grading needs to be as strict, as accurate as possible. Put simply, the aim of grading is to make the buyer visualize the record he or she is purchasing through an advertisement and not be disappointed when that record arrives! A record that is accurately graded will play the same (or better) than the grading!"

"Always grade records under a good, steady light. A 100 watt light bulb in a common desk lamp will do an adequate job; most major defects will jump out at you and allow you to make an accurate assessment of the vinyl. Grading a record using light from the ceiling or from deflected sunlight entering the window will often 'hide' paper scuffs, discoloration, groove wear, and even some fingerprints."


I can only assume that a lot of buyers either aren't that picky about grading or don't really get how it works.

 

Here's the picture that was supposed to appear above:

 

I always take a records age into account. A 50 year old record has had 30 years longer to accumulate dirt in the groove than a 20 year old record. It may look good but sound bad but a good record cleaning may solve that problem. You gotta play it, you can't grade it accurately just doing it visually - but you might get close.

 

If you want to return something, anywhere, you need to give the item back! You can't walk into a store and ask for a refund without returning the item.

 

You're 100% right.

I've never left negative feedback for a discogs seller before, but I guess I've just been lucky. When I've had issues in the past, sellers have apologized, maybe admitted that they only visually graded. This seller's insistence that the record was accurately play graded and photographed (yet doesn't want to compare pictures) just left a bad taste in my mouth.

But yes, I will gladly return this for a refund.

 

And that's why i think just a few seconds of play will tell you if the visual grade is betraying the play grade.

 

I think most trusted sellers in the U.S. use the Goldmine system. It is spelled out without ambiguity and in this day and age, easy to obtain. It helps everyone when they are all on the same page. For starters, there is no mint designation. It starts at near mint. Unless a record is sealed it can't be anything else but NM. As someone else said, sealed records are a different kettle of fish. Sellers who are interested in longevity in the biz will probably eat all or at least half of a sealed record replacement due to damage to the record surface or label or even the wrong record (it happens). Then there is the issue of sellers who reseal records. Not many would try reselling trashed records but I bet plenty are tempted at reselling returns. It would be real easy on something more likely left sealed to hold value sort of like trophy wines that get resold but rarely drank.

I just looked at those scratches on your picture. Even if the scratches weren't audible I still couldn't grade that record a VG++. No way, and then it's loud poppy sounding too? Send it back. He's either a con man or he's not well versed in record sales which is possible. Everyone that sells out of his home wants to sell what is hot and records are hot. If he's a long time eBay seller then he definitely needs a little talking to via your critique. You don't have to bury him with exaggerated descriptors but he should be held accountable. Long term or one off, this seller needs to do. A better job or suffer the consequences.