Vinyl Torture Tracks - Inner Grooves, Sibilants, Hotly Cut Tracks, Sudden Volume Bursts, etc.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by patient_ot, Mar 8, 2019.

  1. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Here's another one. Track A5, "Northern England", from the Wild Swan's debut LP. It's an inner groove track, cut loud, and has very loud drums courtesy of the 80s gated drum sound which was in vogue at the time. My AT/Signet ML stylus handles it the best, but my other advanced styli carts (Shibata, Gyger-S) have a little bit of trouble with it. The song sounds better on lossless digital or CD overall.

    The Wild Swans - Bringing Home The Ashes
     
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  2. MikeM.

    MikeM. Forum Resident

    Location:
    Jacksonville, IL
    I believe he has been associated with several Neil Young albums.
     
  3. Pavol Stromcek

    Pavol Stromcek Senior Member

    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    Cool, I have that record! I haven't listened to it in several years, though, but I'll have to go check that track out on my system when I get a chance.
     
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  4. nosliw

    nosliw Delivering parcels throughout Teyvat! Meow~!

    Location:
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    I found the information on another forum regarding the two different cuts of the Telarc 1812 pressings:

    The first version released of 10041 Side-A had the most challenging groove modulation. The dead wax in the runout area is scribed "A11" and "SR" (for Stan Ricker). (Apparently Stan's first ten attempts were scrapped.)

    The next "A12" mastering reduced the subsonic level with a 6 dB shelf below 40 Hz and 12 db/octave rolloff below 20 Hz. This was done to reduce excitation of tonearm subsonic resonances. Later masterings were cut at yet slightly different levels. Takeaway is that not all versions of the Telarc 1812 are the same. Some are absurdly difficult to track, the rest merely very difficult.

    Mine is the A12 mastering, the slightly milder cut of the LP. Mine never skipped on the three cartridges I use on my JVC turntable but I did hear some clipping during the cannon shots with varying degrees per cartridge.
     
  5. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    That's what I have seen too. Good info.

    Here is what I have in my log for one of mine (I have two copies - one not logged apparently):

    TELSS 10041-A11 M3 A11 SR Manufactured in Germany
    TELSS 10041 B8 M3 SR Manufactured in Germany

    EDIT: I just checked my second copy (which is the one I pictured in my link in the post) -- it is also A11. I'll try to snap a pic.

    A couple pics, hard to see so added two - this is the one in my link:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
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  6. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    Those grooves are insane. Doesn't playing this record have the potential to damage your system? I'm willing to bet that no component was ever designed to playback anything like this.
     
  7. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    I just played it again on my GT-2000L (the A11 version of the 1812) - not even a hint of a skip. Plays fine..... sure is cool though on the NS-2000's and their 13" woofs and the two subs I have hooked up --- you should have seen my beagles jump! And my wife!

    The KP-1100 did skip a few weeks back -- I should try it on all six TT's I have set up just for sh*** and giggles. (clearly you can see in the pics below it's not skipping LOL :laugh:)[​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  8. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    Cross-posted with yours :) --- as in the link at the start of the thread to the "Listening to CLassical Music Thread" --- it plays fine on my GT-2000L --- note that is a beefy 22G EM tonearm and 15lb platter ---- also check the link I provided earlier, the LP came with flyer, bulletin about potential damage claims!

    Listenin' to Classical Music and Conversation

    EDIT: my take is there is a lot of "internet myth" around this LP -- it is difficult but nowhere near impossible to play --- many have played it --- don't believe all the claims of "one TT located in the clouds sprinkled with fairy dust"
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  9. nosliw

    nosliw Delivering parcels throughout Teyvat! Meow~!

    Location:
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    I just read the information on the pink insert in your photo and it said about the amplifier may clip/distort during the cannon shots. FWIW, I was using to my headphones and I'm using a Nakamichi receiver with the STASIS technology built-in. Hmmmmm...
     
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  10. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    Nice. Good looking TT you have there.
     
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  11. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    I will play it again and listen very closely for distortion --- I don't recall anything obtuse but will listen close --- there may be some. I will also try on my Beyer DT-880 headphones which is fed by a Beyer A-2 HP amp

    Signal path for this TT: DL-103R --> Lounge Copla Silver / Mkiii Silver --> Parasound P5 --> Parasound A21 --> Yamaha NS-2000 Speaks (Belden 1505F IC & Mogami XLR to A21)

    Beyer A-2 is hooked up to P5's output
     
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  12. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Heavy tonearm and low-compliance broadcast cartridge - seems the way to go for something like this.
     
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  13. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    I also have a DL-102 also-- talk about "broadcast / low compliance"!!!! Makes the the DL-103R look light duty. But it is a Mono cart, HOMC at 3..0mv. I have estimated the compliance in the 3-4 @100hz range...... still the green zone on my GT-2000 but in the 12 range --- which actually for broadcast cartridges you want to be in the higher end of the range.

    Talk about a great cartridge for my old late 50's Mono pressings though!!

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    Wait... The nameplate has "Gigantic and Tremendous" on it. That's beautiful, lol. I don't think I've ever seen one of those.
     
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  15. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    Thanks Spin...... :) They are a fun toy. That is what "GT" stands for (Gigantic and Tremendous!) This thing weighs like 65lbs. One cool thing - the motor torque. I hand clean all my LPs on it --- I could sit on it and it would still spin. You can run it either 100V standard plug or 24DC with an external power supply - that is how I run it.

    This comes with a 15lb platter --- but you can optionally put the 38lb gunmetal platter on there! Gives you an idea of how strong the motor on these is, it was designed to work with that option. The gunmetal platter is made for the GT-2000x --- which is the big brother to the GT-2000L with a higher end tonearm, gunmetal platter,etc --- those can go for $6000+ though in nice shape!

    More and more of them are getting bought / shipped over from Japan as big mouths like me :) and a few others keep showing them off --- in the early 80s when we in the States thought that belt-drives were the only thing audiophile worthy, the Japanese were keeping all the cool DDs and shipping us the lower end models (Kenwood is a good example, so is Pioneer --- look up P3, P10, PL-70Lii and more for Pioneer). There are a lot of very nice DD tables many have not heard of!!! (I own a few of them)

    Cartridge matching gets a little challenging though since it's a 22g EM tonearm (makes me wonder what all those guys with the FR-64S and 35g EM are using --- then again I know what they're using --- and most of them are vintage carts).

    I am fortunate enough to have some fun / cool Japanese early 80's DD's set up - I also have the Pioneer PL-70Lii and a Kenwood KP-9010 /1100 set up --- also very nice TT's. Looking at a P-10 right now (Pioneer) - really don't need it but its out there and in great shape. (don't ask where it is not listed anywhere!)
     
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  16. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    For sure. Low-mid 20s is challenging to match but not that difficult if you dig a little deeper from the usual suspects. 35g is a totally different story.
     
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  17. Echoes Myron

    Echoes Myron Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Story checks out. That bass is pretty jacked. Sounds good on my rig though. Great album.
     
  18. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    Ok, I just pulled mine out again after 15 years or so.....I remember this was a horrible record for sibilance back in the days when I only played vinyl for fun and didn't care too much about the technical set-up side and didn't even know the proper word for those Sssssss'es.
    Guess what.......:pineapple:.....my ordinary elliptical (denon dl-110) sailed through every track (yes, also don't give up) without a hint of the dreaded S. I guess I have set it up pretty well :sweating:

    Oh, it's an original German pressing.
     
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  19. c-eling

    c-eling They're made of light,We never would have guessed

    Man I miss my 110!
    Thanks for the info :) Issues could be related to Bernie's old cut
     
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  20. vinylkid58

    vinylkid58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Victoria, B.C.
    Yes, there definitely is an issue with the Canadian "BG" cut. Unfortunately, I don't have anything else to compare it to.

    jeff
     
  21. Pavol Stromcek

    Pavol Stromcek Senior Member

    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    So, I checked out "Northern England" (US Sire pressing) and it did seem to get just a tiny bit iffy during the choruses, mainly toward the end of the song, but nothing extreme. It was mostly fine, but I could tell that an inferior cartridge would have pretty serious problems with it. In fact, I kinda remember now how when I first bought it, the inner-most songs on both sides sounded pretty lousy on my old turntable with a Grado cart.

    Would you say that your AT/Signet ML handles "Northern England" 100-percent perfectly?
     
  22. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    I'd have to go back and check. Right now the AT/Signet ML is sidelined because it's too high compliance to work on my main deck and the secondary deck I used it on is up for sale. If that deck doesn't end up selling soon I'll probably just keep it and compare. Hard to do a comparison from memory via that cart and the lossless digital I have on the "Magnitude" collection, but from memory it was very close. The Shibata and FG-S styli carts I have don't handle it quite as well. The ML has the narrowest side radius on the stylus of all these cartridges and is one of the, if not THE narrowest side radius stylus you can buy. Namiki holds the patent on that one.
     
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  23. zombiemodernist

    zombiemodernist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeastern USA
    Final cut on the b-side of MoFi Pinkerton “Butterfly” is a good example. The entire LP is cut much hotter and leans more forward/detailed in the EQ than the CD which is pretty free of sibilants. The final track seems to be a victim of this EQ, level and IDG. Lesser styli like my MP-110 will track the “sssslips away” parts in a very splashy way. My Denon 110 tracks it better but it still seems to be a bit grating compared to the CD.
     
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  24. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    I played this record today and ended up listening to that track twice. I think my Goldring 1042 handled it pretty well. That reissue is cut quite hot. I was playing a different record prior to it and had to lower the volume a few notches.
     
  25. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Here's another one, the track "The Great Curve" from Talking Heads' Remain in Light LP.

    This pressing:

    Talking Heads - Remain In Light

    On the last 1/4 of the track, there is a male backing vocal line with the following lyrics:

    She, has got to move the world, to move the world, to move the world

    The word She is very sibilant and it was recorded that way. You can hear it on the original Sire CD as well as the CD/DVD-A remastered version.

    On the Sire LP I linked above, carts with less tracking ability with exaggerate that sibilant word a little bit. My Goldring 1042 does that. The AT VM95ML I just installed does NOT do that and tracks it very, very accurately.
     
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