VPI 3D tonearm upgrades

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by LeeS, Feb 15, 2019.

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  1. danomar

    danomar My spoon is too big.

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    My Prime came with the 3D arm and it seemed to allow more isolation (and thus detail) from my Dynavector XX2. I recently got a "Classic" metal arm (the last upgrade with Valhalla wiring) as a second and installed the Dynavector onto it. The 3D arm sounds better, but the difference is incremental. With the Classic (metal) arm, I am missing a little treble detail and imaging is not quite as detailed either. The midrange seems a bit more pronounced but the bass seems the same-ish.

    The 3D arm actually has a higher effective mass, so your cartridge might or might not sound much better. I suspect and cartridge will sound better with the 3D arm, but the extent to which detail improves? Depends on what you run.
     
    Tullman and LeeS like this.
  2. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I'm not skeptical. The metal tonearm I have rings like a Kardashian cell phone.
     
    psulioninks likes this.
  3. Timeless Classics

    Timeless Classics Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Which model would you go for? Prime Signature, Avenger, or HW40?
     
  4. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Either HW40 or Prime Signature. I'm not sure on the Avenger sonics. Feels like a flat to incremental increase over Prime Signature.

    HW40 at the Florida show astounded me.
     
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  5. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I would, however, do the unipivot arm on the HW40. I'm not a big gimbal fan.
     
    Timeless Classics likes this.
  6. Twinsfan007

    Twinsfan007 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Its "supposedly" already sold
     
  7. Timeless Classics

    Timeless Classics Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    What's up with the Gimbal? You have been the first I've heard that hasn't liked it over the Unipivot. My dealer just called me and have opportunity to get a Classic Direct Drive at a great price with a Fatboy (my choice of Unipivot or Gimbal). He got some of the last Direct Drives before the release of the HW40. It is too good of a deal to pass up and love the look of the Classic Direct over the HW40.
     
    ripping corpse and LeeS like this.
  8. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta
    What do guys think about the stainless steel center weight? Worthy upgrade?
     
    ellingtonic likes this.
  9. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Knowing Harry and Mat, the gimbal is excellent and like I said it sure was amazing in Florida. I just have a preference for unipivots. I like how they float in the groove.
     
  10. rebellovw

    rebellovw Forum Resident

    Location:
    hell
    Absolute nonsense you must have something special.
     
  11. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I'm exaggerating of course, but you can hear the noise when you touch the metal arm. I don't hear it on the 3D arms. That has to help with sound quality. VPI also changed the geometry of the tube since then. My arm is from around 2004 or so.
     
    rebellovw likes this.
  12. thegage

    thegage Forum Currency Nerd

    That has been their corporate philosophy from the beginning. Some people like it, some people don't. I like to play with components so I appreciate their openness to tweaking and trying new things.

    John K.
     
  13. rebellovw

    rebellovw Forum Resident

    Location:
    hell
    Got it thanks. My Classic arm is completely silent no noise whatsoever.
     
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  14. thegage

    thegage Forum Currency Nerd

    On the metal arms fluid damping totally kills dynamics. VPI thinks the 3D arms don't need damping, and from my experience I'd agree. The only other arm I've ever used damping on was an ET-2, which helped bass definition noticeably, but didn't appear to affect the midrange or treble.

    John K.
     
  15. rebellovw

    rebellovw Forum Resident

    Location:
    hell
    Not my experience- damping has greatly helped with tracking difficult records and avoiding skips. Hasn’t done anything with dynamics.
     
  16. rebellovw

    rebellovw Forum Resident

    Location:
    hell
    Next time I set up the VPI I’ll run without damping and check it out. Thanks.
     
  17. thegage

    thegage Forum Currency Nerd

    You can go crazy with weights just like platter mats. I've had the HRX weight, the HRS ADH, and now the Symposium LPI. Which is right for you really depends on your system. The HRX tends to be brighter in my system, the ADH a little over-damped. The LPI is just right for most of what I listen to. MoFi also offers a center weight that was developed with the HRS guys, but is a lot less than the ADH or LPI.

    John K.
     
    LeeS likes this.
  18. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Thanks John. The Mofi weight is an option I had not considered. Will add to the list. :)
     
  19. Tony Plachy

    Tony Plachy Senior Member

    Location:
    Pleasantville, NY
    Lee, FWIW here is my long and winding road :winkgrin: of VPI tonearm upgrades. I started my VPI experience way back in 2002 when I got an original TNT-HR which had the metal 12" JMW Memorial arm. At that time I was using a Benz-Micro M2 cartridge. Now, let me say in advance, that the main problem with my tonearm upgrade experience is that often I upgraded both arm and cartridge at the same time and the cartridge usually overshadowed the arm. Given my age and the fact that I no longer have the hands that picked up lunar soil grains with vacuum tweezers or did micro-surgery on semiconductor components, the idea of first testing the arm with the old cartridge and then changing to the new cartridge to determine the effect of the arm just did not appeal to me. In late 2015 I was lucky enough to acquirer a VPI Classic Direct with a 12" 3D arm and I started using a Benz-Micro Ruby 3H cartridge. This should be my baseline because the entire combination of the TT, arm and cartridge in that setup was noticeably superior to my old 2002 setup. In 2017, I got a second arm, the 3DR arm with the Nordost wiring, however, I also upgrade to an Ortofon A95 cartridge which requires me to use a SUT (Bob's Devices 10/20 step up, replaces my VPI junction box). The first thing that was obvious when I got the Classic Direct was the incredible stability of the acoustic image. With the 3DR and the A95 the obvious improvements were in neutrality and the sound stage width and depth.

    At this point I should mention that with the A95 (which is only about 6g in mass) I was having very noticeable tonearm wobble. A discussion with Harry Weisfeld at the NYC Audio show solved that by adding the dual pivot option to the 3DR.

    Finally to wrap this up I traded-in my 3D tonearms for the new Fatboy tonearm (there is a very generous factory sponsored trade-in and I am not sure if the trade-in is still going on). I just installed it last month with the A95 and it is the most stable tonearm I have ever had and the acoustic image is better than ever. All I can say is I have never had a VPI tonearm upgrade that has disappointed me.

    I have also heard from Skibum that the HRS weight is a noticeable improvement over the stock center weight but I have not had a chance to hear it.
     
  20. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Thanks for the comments Tony. I wish I had the fatboy option but there is none for the 9" Scoutmaster base and I really just wanted a semi-affordable upgrade with the 9" 3D option. In any event, I am blown away by the jump in sound quality I got. That epoxy resin is really inert!

    Do you have any thoughts on the ADS speed controller or past experience with the SDS (I know you have the direct drive now)?

    I am thinking of doing that as the next upgrade.
     
  21. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Will also consider the HRS weight.
     
  22. McGuy

    McGuy All Mc, all the time...

    Location:
    Chicago
    If you don't already have a VPI, there is some new super special Prime Scout that is being offered with the Prime platter (I think) JMW 3D tonearm and VTA on the fly for $2900 or so. If i could sell my prime scout for around $2k I'd pick one up! huge upgrades for very little price.
     
  23. Tony Plachy

    Tony Plachy Senior Member

    Location:
    Pleasantville, NY
    Lee, My old TNT-HR used the SDS and it made a huge difference in speed accuracy and steadiness (wow and flutter). The ADS is suppose to be even better.
     
    LeeS likes this.
  24. Drew769

    Drew769 Buyer of s*** I never knew I lacked

    Location:
    NJ
    Actually, ADS is supposedly far inferior (read:cheaper internals and a very spotty reliability) to your old SDS, which was built like a tank.
     
  25. Tony Plachy

    Tony Plachy Senior Member

    Location:
    Pleasantville, NY
    I have not followed the ADS program as closely as I would if I had a belt drive TT, however, my understanding is there were some problems with the initial ADS (things link loud transformer hum - when I turn on my c-j power amps in the winter on one of them the transformer hums until it warms up :o ) those have been fixed and there is suppose to be a deluxe version in the works.

    Lee, I recommend you go over to the VPI forum to get the latest on this stuff. I still highly recommend that you get a speed controller for you TT.
     
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