VTA and record noise

I recently played the new Pink Floyd 180 gram lp DSOTM and I thought the surface noise was a bit intrusive on the quiet sections of the lp, not bad but not excellent either. Could the vertical tracking angle of my Thorens tone arm increase the noise I am hearing on some lps? I usually find the light weight lps play quieter on my system than the 180 gram lps.

 

That's strange. When I had cracked open my DSOTM, my VTA was set a tad low. I've been in the middle of putting a cart that was 4mm in overhang from a Rega P3 w/an RB300 arm. I'm up to snuff now, but...

I had also purchased some 200g Classic Recs issues too, on Quiex vinyl.

Now, the Floyd and most Simply Vinyl issues, the vinyl should be DEAD quiet. My ClassicRecs 200g sets, some of my 1st, were NO thicker than the 180's. Both played smooth, and problem free.

With that in mind, all of these records, barring one that was clearly defective that I sent back, all were dead quiet. It was Pink Floyd that didn't even PEEP as far as surface noise. I may hear 1-2 ticks on the run-in groove for most records, but most mint/new records SOUNDED new.

Have you taken a protractor lately, and playing Dr. Devil's Advocate looked into the alignment? It's worth a look....

 

I don't believe that the Shure is as sensitive to VTA as some other cartridges. How does it sit on the record--i.e., with top parallel, tilted back, or tilted forward?

 

It's slightly forward, but by a tad. You're correct in from listening, the VTA is not wholly vital to the accuracy and how it sits on/in the groove.

Was that what you meant, in looking at the height of the arm to how the cart sits?

 

In my experience, VTA (and other) alignments have little or no effect whatever on surface noise. Which is reasonable.

 

Sckott:

Looks like our replies crossed in posting; my question was actually to Tullman.

To clarify: Tullman asked if the VTA of his tonearm was causing problems. I kind of redirected the question, in that what most people check for VTA is the position of the cartridge relative to the surface of the record. Forgive me if I'm being overly didactic, but most cartridge manufacturers recommend starting out with the cartridge parallel to the surface of the record. You then vary the height of the tonearm at the pivot point (assuming you can) to change VTA until you are satisfied with the sound.

But even that's not exactly correct. VTA is the vertical angle of the stylus in the groove. The best VTA is usually that which matches the VTA of the original cutting head, but cutting head VTAs are(were) not standard. In any case, VTA is affected by tracking weight and horizontal tonearm geometry: for the same tonearm position a different tracking weight will give a different VTA. Basically it's a trial and error listening process for your particular cartridge/tonearm/tracking weight.

As to the Shure, as I said I don't believe it's particularly sensitive to VTA in that a VTA that is off will cause increased surface noise. I'm not familiar with the Thorens arm and don't know if it is height adjustable. If so, starting with the cartridge body parallel to the record and then varying arm height on the same record will give more insight as to whether of not VTA is the problem (as opposed to other things, like a bad pressing!).

John K.

 

I will check to see if the cartridge is parallel. I don't think I can adjust the VTA on the Thorens arm, but I will check this.

Sckott, You said that your DSOTM was extremely quiet. Mine was not that great. I got mine from red trumpet so I would think we have the same pressing, that it is why I thought it might be my TT.

 

It was so quiet, it sounded like I wasn't playing vinyl. Not a pop in sight. Not even in the quiet passages, or in the runout groove. A real wow. That's how quiet it was... Sorry you're not in that experience.

 

No, Mine sounds like it has been played 100 times.

 

For the most part, most members have confirmed my findings. Has anyone else experienced more-than-usual surface noise?

 

I got mine from Red-Trumpet too and it is dead quiet.
As Sckott says, Simply Vinyl vinyl is not prone to surface noise.
However, my copy of the Eagles' Hell Freezes Over 2LP set from Simply Vinyl is infested with surface noise. So... anything is possible.

BC

 

Side 1 of mine is excellent. When I first played Side 2, I did notice some ticks and pops during the quiet passages (mostly the end of "Money"/beginning of "Us and Them") that seemed a bit much for a brand-new record. I had Disc Doctor'd and double-rinsed both sides of the LP (as I do with every new LP I buy, usually with superb results) and, after I gave Side 2 a third distilled-water rinse, many (but not all) of the ticks and pops were gone.

Some copies are better than others, it seems. I know the three Simply Vinyl LPs I own (all Nick Drake titles) are possibly the three quietest LPs in my collection ... and Side 1 of my DSOTM, at least, lives up to that.

 

As long as we're being picky (who, us?), actually the correct VTA is what matches what's in the groove, which does not necessarily exactly match the cutter head angle. Apparently the lacquer "springs back" a bit after cutting.

Theoretically the cutting angle was standardized at 20 degrees at some point well into the stereo era, whereas before that it was nominally 15 degrees, but only nominally.

Not to mention record. Frankly, I'll try to get it close, but I can't be bothered any more fiddling with such adjustments for every record. (You know you're getting old when....)

As I said before, I don't believe geometric adjustments generally make any noticeable difference to the surface noise.

What will determine how "sensitive" a cartridge is to the vta adjustment is it's stylus shape. Longer contact area styli will always be more "sensitive" to this than other types. This will have more to do with perceived focus, harshness/brightness, imaging solidity and other such "audiophile" things than with noise. (I find VTA adjustments very hard to do.)

 

Thanks Steve, I guess that makes me feel better.

 

I can't adjust VTA with my Rega, but will probably modify this in the near future (along with buying a V15), so I don't have a lot of first hand experience with this. I've always heard how adjusting VTA can change the sound, but I had never heard about surface noise level change with changes in VTA until I experienced this for myself once. Maybe this was an extreme case and was why I heard what I did (plus a V15, due to its stylus profile, should be pretty sensitive to VTA adjustments), but a friend uses a Technics 1200 with V15 VxMR. One day about a year or so ago, I brought over Steve's Pet Sounds LP to his house. I put it on and was pretty surprised to hear it sound kinda grainy and noisy. I looked at the stylus and it looked like it was digging into the groove! I played around with the VTA and the record became quiet and sounded better. I tilted it back a little too much at first, but after tweaking it a bit with a few records, I seem to have gotten it pretty close to it being "right" for most records for him. So from this one experience, I'll say yes, VTA can change the amount of surface noise heard. I think it's due to the stylus riding (or not riding) correctly in the groove due to different factors (including VTA) and correctly picking up as much of the signal as your setup allows. But I'm no technician .

 

There are adjustment mods you can get from Origin Live and Mitchell, but too much height, and you can't mount he arm through the plynth and the washers you might choose. You can only go 3-4mm higher, or you'll lose touch with the threads the nut has to grab onto to mount the arm...

I've got it together, but with only a quarter-twist on that nut to leave the arm attached...whew.

 

Thanks Scott - do you know if any of these Rega VTA mods add any height just by being there (sort of like a spacer under the arm)? How many mm (if any)? I've never seen a Rega in person with one of these installed. I had a 2 mm spacer installed under the arm when I first bought my Rega, which of course I would remove if I bought one of these VTA adjuster mods.

Also, thanks for your earlier posts on your experience with your V15 with a Rega.

 

Martin,

I have learned never to rule anything out in audio, but I can't help wonder if what you were experiencing, as far as the noise goes, is just some dirt being dug out of the grooves with repeated playing?

 

I read a long time ago, in a Mobile Fidelity brochure, that they did not "de-horn" their masters (or stampers, or "mothers"...something like that), and that their LPs sometimes needed a few plays to get rid of some random ticks.

 

Last night I listened to the 180 gram lp Hendrix smash hits which had no surface noise at all. I think i will send back the Pink Floyd lp.