WB cartoon framing question

I'm watching the Chuck Jones DVD and noticed some of the cartoons are "letter boxed" on all four sides. I've noticed that before, especially during the opening titles of the cartoon. What's the purpose for this?

 

I've noticed more than a few of the '50s WB toons should be letterboxed at about 1.66:1 aspect. When they're not, they're missing a bit from each side of the image(the older tunes should be 1.33:1; regular frame). Those that should be, and are not, will look a bit cramped. You know something's up if the credits are LB'd and the rest of the toon isn't.

I'm still waiting for some of the M-G-M toons that were done in the CinemaScope aspect ratio(2:35.1)but who knows when--or if--they'll turn up.


ED

 

There's two on the Tex Avery LD set.

Cartoon Network showed a few of the Tom & Jerry CinemaScope cartoons a while back. I think it was a special occasion though.

 

Some of the Warner cartoons are framed during the opening titles. I'm talking about the classics from the 40's. I've been looking for a screen shot but can't find one on the net.

 

I've noticed this, too. The opening sequences are letterboxed, but instead of a black background, it's blue.

 

That's kind of what I figured, Steve. Hopefully this will be fixed with the remasters.

 

It should be noted that the two complete cartoons on the DVD (Feed The Kitty and Duck Dodgers) are not letterboxed in any way, not even the titles.

 

I think when you see a border around the opening titles, you are seeing the entire frame area, so that none of the written information is lopped off by television overscanning (which should be around 5%, I believe, but is sometimes more). The laserdisc I have of Charlie Chaplins MODERN TIMES is "window boxed" like this. They could have just let the TV chew away at that last little bit around the edges, but they chose to show all of it. I guess, maybe, some of the old titles used every available bit of frame without concern (why should they, back then?) for "safe title" area.

 

Ideally, "windowboxing" doesn't leave out any of the frame, but just as Piknik says, allows you to see the entire frame even on a TV set where the overscanning is typically 5% or more. I believe that credits are particularly important in this regard, because they legally have to appear in their entirety when the piece is shown. That's why some pan-and-scan movies letterbox the opening credits (then revert to the ghastly pan-and-scan).

I agree that bad mastering is bad mastering, but I'm not sure the windowboxed WB cartoons are throwing away any of the image or trashing the 1.33:1 aspect ratio.

 

I have two series of WB cartoons...I had to copy the VHS series after it went out of print (in SLP mode, no less), but did manage to buy the entire Laserdisc collection when it was in print. Without anything to compare them to, however, I don't notice if they're chopped off or not.

It also doesn't help that many TVs are set for a ridiculous amount of overscan to account for the crappy power supplies. I remember shopping for a TV about five years ago. A Panasonic I looked at had a decent picture, but whenever a bright white scene would appear, the entire picture would shrink...inadequate power. Ended up with a Sony, which had the least amount of "cheapness" problems.

Learned a lot when I helped Dad buy the NAD MR20.

 

I have a few cheap DVDs of public domain WB cartoons from the 40s. The quality is lousy, but they are viewable, and some have the windowboxed opening credits. I've seen it on some VHS copies as well. I think it mainly applies to those which don't have the full original credit sequence, but use those "Blue Ribbon" title screens with the red background.

 

On most TVs, you could probably have the overscan reduced by a TV tech, but they're adjusted to HAVE overscan so that the picture shrinkage during scene changes isn't seen. Which is why on better, premium sets, the overscan would likely be set at a lesser amount than with the cheaper sets. It IS a good shopping point, but you'd need to play back a source that would let you see how much of the picture is being clipped off due to overscan...some kind of test pattern in other words.

DirecTV once had a text-based channel of upcoming programming that featured stadium lights on either side of the picture. You could tell from the number of visible lights how much of the picture was overscanned--I think that either five or six lights on each side were supposed to be fully visible.

 

I had always been under the impression from reading somewhere that the non-restored cartoons had some problems at the outer edges of the film (sprocket damage, etc.) and that is why certain cartoons have been windowboxed and/or zoomed. It has also been discussed that several of the cartoons openings had been lost when the cartoons were cut apart several years ago. Perhaps this is why several are windowboxed only on the credits. Even the restored Feed The Kitty, though, on the Chuck Jones DVD looks like it has been zoomed a bit to me (although not enough to really be bothersome IMHO), based on the (mis)framing of several scenes.

Exactly right. Take a copy of the Avia DVD with you and have them play the overscan pattern. It shouldn't be too tough for a store to play a DVD on a TV, if requested, in making a buying decision. If they decline, then I wouldn't buy the TV there. The Avia DVD is also handy for checking out several other things when buying a TV, such as red push, geometry problems, inadequate power supply (as pointed out above), etc. in addition to being an essential after the sale tool for getting the most from your set.

 

MANY years ago, in the mid 80's, before there were such things as "test discs" for Laserdisc players, I wrote a color bar program in BASIC so that I could adjust the colors on the old MGA (Mitsubishi) TV I had in the basement. The picture looked great when I was done with it! And fortunately I had a computer that had a composite video output.

I think using the Avia DVD would rule out buying from places like Best Buy. In fact, their TVs ALL looked terrible there, since they were all fed from one lousy central feed. Unless the TV had a built-in DVD player, I doubt they would play "requests".

 

If you go to a store where they are 'all fed from one lousy central feed' and they won't let you view anything else, or you don't ask to view anything else, then how are you going to decide what ANY of those TV's will look when you get them home and set them up properly?

When I go shopping for TV's I keep it very simple and ask right up front. I let them know that I won't buy the TV there unless they will hook a DVD player up to the TV directly. If they refuse, I politely leave the store. No big deal, as there are plenty of other stores around that are happy to help out in exchange for buying from them. To me, it's irrelevant if I save a buck or two if they won't let me accurately see how the TV performs. What matters most to you may be different.

It is amazing, though, how many stores that initially refuse your request will all of a sudden change their tune when you start heading for the door.

Hope this info might help someone out.

 

Oh yeah...I've even used this in restaurants to good effect. Or just complaining to the right person. Got seated at a restaurant very late last Wednesday, told the waiter we'd been waiting awhile, and we basically had to pay ONLY for our burgers...the drinks, the sides, the desserts, all thrown in free. He got a massive tip.

Best Buy...heh...if I walked to the door, they wouldn't care! Last time I raised an issue about a coupon they wouldn't honor...nothing. Maybe they'd rather get us squeaky wheels out of the stores so we don't scare away all the Joe Sixpacks looking for TVs to watch football and porn on.

 

Also, they're just college students working for a paycheck and aren't really salespeople. I don't think they'd care if they lost a sale. No commission anyway.