SH Spotlight We love LOVE! "Forever Changes" Elektra 1967 recording sessions and dates, studios, stories, etc.

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Steve Hoffman, Jun 19, 2013.

  1. TheDailyBuzzherd

    TheDailyBuzzherd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeast USA

    Contact high from the smoke?

    :p
     
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  2. TheDailyBuzzherd

    TheDailyBuzzherd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeast USA
    Where’s Lemonade Kid? He knows!

    Funny thing … seeing Crimson twice soon ( hopefully)
    and pulled out my copy of “Discipline”. The flip? This.
    Couldn’t be more different. So, I’ve been playing “FC”
    again. Complete random coincidence.

    Digging a little deeper here, I had a copy of Relix that
    reported on a Summer of Love concert reunion in 1987.
    Many of the old characters were there: Moby Grape,
    It’s a Beautiful Day. It probably helped that The Dead
    had a charting LP at the time.

    Anyway, I think that issue had a blurb on Love and the
    difficult circumstances in which “FC” was recorded:
    unstable lineup, members crying because they couldn’t
    replicate what they were feeling instrumentally … yet
    another minor miracle it was finished at all. This one
    easily could’ve become another “SMiLE”.

    Love means never having to say you’re sorry.
     
  3. WilliamWes

    WilliamWes Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    I checked that Relix article - that was a well-written article by Stewart Hickey that got a couple of things wrong but in general was one of the more accurate articles on Love in the 1980s. There's nothing about the group crying in the Relix article. The crying thing is pretty funny -that's really a melodramatic way of beefing up a story - that was only said by Bruce Botnick to prove that his strategy was right to use session musicians. None of the band members nor The Wrecking Crew, or Jac Holzman said Love members were crying.

    By the time of the 2018 boxset, Botnick himself knew he got carried away with the 'crying' and instead used the word 'disconsolate'.
    --
    When you think about it, Michael Stuart-Ware was saying on one hand Love did 70 takes of "7 & 7 Is" (some say 40) and then when you have a complicated album like 'Forever Changes' and you only get a couple of takes to try complicated songs structurally like "The Daily Planet", and Arthur didn't rehearse with them beforehand enough - he only went through them once or twice, it'll lead to failed takes.
     
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  4. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Yeah, that's not a fold. I wonder why THIS one has a dedicated mono mix? Makes no sense. Has anyone tried listening to the stereo mix in L+R?
     
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  5. TheDailyBuzzherd

    TheDailyBuzzherd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeast USA

    Reminds me of certain directors who INSIST on 20 takes per scene – REGARDLESS.
    The Editor’s Nightmare. That said, I know I’d be murder in the studio …

    So Botnick was the source of the “crying” comment? Was that in the Rolling Stone
    Record Guide? I read it somewhere.
     
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  6. WilliamWes

    WilliamWes Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    That I don't know for sure but it definitely was in the Forever Changes 2001 booklet - but that's the one everyone bought at their peak of reassessment. That remastered CD brought Love the most resurgence so everyone saw that comment.
     
  7. WilliamWes

    WilliamWes Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    That was the other single - the UK single "The Daily Planet"/"Andmoreagain" - maybe cause it was a single? In my book I just did a comparison between your tape's mix and the stereo mix from the stereo LP.

    The original mix has the rhythm section on the left, guitars on the right, vocals, and electric guitar is centered. “Or play it on the air” is heard by an unidentified voice before the song begins on the alternate version. The rhythm section, lead electric guitar, and vocal is centered. The electric rhythm guitar is left, and the acoustic guitar is right. The song has a complete finish instead of a fade lengthening the song by about ten seconds.
     
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  8. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing

    Several sources have Botick saying they were all crying when the were "fired" from the sessions. Both Michael and Johnny have said that was BS. Sure they were upset and shocked, who wouldn't be, as they only gave them a couple takes to get it right during the FC session (they had never played these tracks together before this session!). Is After all it took of 40 takes to get 7&7 Is right, and Love weren't fired then. It would seem Bruce and Arthur's stories are largely apocryphal.

    But to make a point (and I have it first hand they were not balling their eyes out), I can't imagine any of Love sitting in the studio and crying...purely apocryphal. Michael, Kenny and Johnny hung around during the Wrecking Crew sessions to give advice. Kenny's advice on the bass for The Daily Planet got Carol thrown onto the guitar and man she was not happy, and complained that her fingers hurt after the sessions. Michael was there on the first Crew day; Johnny wasn't. Michael couldn't take it the second day--too painful to watch. Johnny was there on the second day. Jim Gordon was there on the kit first day...Hal Blaine called in sick or something. Hal was there on the kit on the second day for Johnny to see.

    1) Andmoreagain was recorded first by the Crew. Then Love was brought back in a month later to overdub parts (Johnny was absent for some reason) as the Crew's session just didn't sound like Love, and the Crew is lost in the mix on the final album. Michael remembers it distinctly because he hates a section of his drumming where he "over modulates" his drumming. When he wanted to do it over, Arthur said, nope.

    2) The Daily Planet has the Crew with Jim Gordon on drums in the final cut that made the album (another take with Hal counting down or something is on the alt take Collector's Edition CD, provided by Steve, and as included in the 50th, hence the confusion). Michael suggested to Arthur, when they listened to it in the booth, that Michael could add some cool drum fills here and there to the track, and Arthur said, sure, go for it. So if you listen carefully, Jim's signature hiccup style drumming is (no way that's Hal) in the left speaker, and later on in the track, Michael's cool fills are added in. ..listen here:

    The Daily Planet...listen for the TWO drummers! Jim on the left; Michael on the right.


    So in reality Love IS actually on every track on Forever Changes...I got it from the horses mouth, from those who were actually there!
    So now you can listen to Forever Changes with eyes wide open...

    :cheers:

    PS. It is easy to say Hal was there on the kit both days...Hal was THE Crew drummer everyone knew and decades on, it becomes, "sure, it was Hal". It had to be. After Bruce's hundreds and hundreds of recording sessions...they have to have blurred together. But for me Michael's memory is faultless -- he told me that he chatted with Jim Gordon during that session (he knew him personally), and somewhat painfully watched Jim play on The Daily Planet session that day. Not easy to forget that! Too painful to watch, Michael skipped the Crew's second day...after that the Crew were gone and Love was given anther chance and, boy, did they shine!
     
  9. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing

    Bummer in the summer...I would love to hear, on record (vinyl that is), how you would handle the remastering!

    :cheers:
     
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  10. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing

    I was lucky to find all three, s/t, Da Capo, and Forever Changes in the early 2000's at a friend's record shop...all three Elektra original first pressings, for $25-40 each and all in NM condition. (another I have of Da Capo is a cool Canadian original promo -- at a record show actually for $10!). I loved My Little Red Book in 1966 on the radio, and remember seeing that album on the wall for $3.88 at my favorite record store but never grabbed it up. No one in the midwest knew who Love was!

    Hearing Love played over the sound system at my friend's record shop is what sold me, in 1996.
     
  11. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Are you saying there is Wrecking Crew on the released version of "Andmoreagain"? I don't believe it. Can't hear a trace of them on there. Can you??
     
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  12. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing

    Sorry...To avoid further confusion with my misworded posts @Steve Hoffman ...this from Michael, simply stated...

    The members of Love played the foundation tracks on every single cut on Forever Changes (including Andmoreagain) except "Daily Planet," which was recorded by The Wrecking Crew, but with Kenny on bass. Then later, while listening to the playback in the booth, I told Arthur I had some ideas for supplemental drum fills and he gave the OK. --Keep enjoying the good old summertime my friend and take care, Michael

    :tiphat:
     
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  13. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    That's it, thanks.
     
  14. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing

    You bet. Cheers!

    Back to Forever Changes...BTW, I do love the tape you supplied for the complete alternate Forever Changes. There is so little Love material from that period, and this is such a joy to hear from the special edition double CD. I often listen to it as much as the official LP!

    :cheers:
     
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  15. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    @lemonade kid, who is playing the electric fuzz guitar (that goes along with the later vocals) on "The Daily Planet"? That's Wrecking Crew as well?

    "I can see you...with no.."
     
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  16. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing

    I will ask Michael. He seems to remember it all so well...
     
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  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    I never listen to the alternate mix. It's clearer but it's weak in too many ways for me to enjoy.. Mixing goofs, indifferent stuff on there that shows it was mixed either in a hurry or by someone who had never heard the album before.

    At any rate, I'm not a fan of rock remixes in general. What I can't understand is how FOREVER CHANGES and DOORS STRANGE DAYS were both mixed in 1967 by the same person in the same studio on the same equipment within a short time of each other. Those two mixes sound like they are from different planets!
     
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  18. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing

    @Steve Hoffman ...I remember you saying once before in another thread; that the discarded alternate takes from the Forever Changes sessions you found on cassette were a remix of multi-track tapes--from the 80's? Is that right or do I have terms mixed up? And those mlti track tapes are now long gone? Is that right? The mulit-track tapes of the final Forever Changes we know and love have been missing for decades too? Probably a good thing. In the wrong hands...

    ANYWAY, AS YOU SAID:
    "At any rate, I'm not a fan of rock remixes in general. What I can't understand is how FOREVER CHANGES and DOORS STRANGE DAYS were both mixed in 1967 by the same person in the same studio on the same equipment within a short time of each other. Those two mixes sound like they are from different planets!" --Steve Hofman

    So to conclude... the original 1960's mixes are a unique part of history...leave 'em alone!

    :tiphat:
     
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  19. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing

    Hey @Steve Hoffman ...this in answer to your question... from Michael.

    Steve:
    @lemonade kid, who is playing the electric fuzz guitar (that goes along with the later vocals) on "The Daily Planet"? That's Wrecking Crew as well?

    Michael:
    ..."hey and what's happening?" to Steve, and thanks again for his fabulous work on the album.
    Billy Strange played the fuzz guitar part along with the rest of the Wrecking Crew on, "Daily Planet," except that Kenny played bass and Carl Kaye was bumped over to rhythm guitar. She plays that beginning up-and-down-the-fretboard sliding guitar riff.

    Jim Gordon was on drums. Snoop and I had seen Jim play for the first time at The Hullabaloo Club one night in '66 when he was touring with The Everly Brothers. That day in the studio, Jim and I chatted a bit, and he asked me what kind of stuff I wanted him to play so that the cut would sound like Love, and not like a bunch of studio people. So, I sat down at his Camco's and showed him. He was super friendly. Not arrogant in the least.
    Later, I overdubbed some totally unnecessary drum fills, but Jim played the oh so tasty foundation drumming.

    The Wrecking Crew recorded the instrumental track on "Andmoreagain," as well; but then the pause, while Elektra reconsidered their decision, and then decided to have the members of the group give it another try. They didn't like the way the session people sounded.
    Elektra threw out their "Andmoreagain," but kept "Daily Planet," I suppose, so that the Wrecking Crew endeavor would not be a complete waste of time and money. The night we re-recorded the "Andmoreagain" track, Johnny had already gone home, so Kenny, Bryan, Billy Strange and I recorded the "Andmoreagain," foundation track that appears on the record. Johnny went in to the studio and laid down some acoustic fills later.

    Did I ever mention that at a gig I played with Johnny and Baby Lemonade at "Spaceland," in Silverlake in around 2009, I had sat in on a few numbers, and at the break a guy walked up and asked me if I remembered Jim Gordon? So I told him of course and mentioned what a beautiful job Jim had done on "Daily Planet," and he said "Yeah, I worked with Jim at a facility work-release program job at May Company on Wilshire, and he mentioned he had played on "Daily Planet."
    So, I think he must have been kind of politely checking me out to see if I would give credit where credit was due. Then, the guy told me, "Every day at work I used to say, 'Hey Jim, let's talk about drums." Because Jim's May Company associate was a drummer, as well.

    Take care my friend, Michael
     
  20. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    That’s great information. I wouldn’t have guessed it was Billy in a million years.

    Please give Michael my regards and tell him thanks for all of this information.
     
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  21. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing

    I sure will, Steve.

    :tiphat:
     
  22. TheDailyBuzzherd

    TheDailyBuzzherd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeast USA

    Cool Beans, Kid! I agree with Steve, one can’t hear The Crew.
    Now we know why. Seems their presence gave Love just the
    kick it needed to get its act together.

    I dunno how big Love was in its prime, but Elektra dropped
    some serious bucks on that production.
     
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  23. zwolo

    zwolo Forum Resident

    Location:
    providence
    Jeez…this thread is blowing my mind. Just….Great. Thanks all. ( this is why this forum is exceptional)
     
  24. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Forgot to add that it trips my mind it's Carol Kaye doing that rhythm guitar part we all know so well. She should have played guitar more.

    And Jim Gordon. Yikes, he was a good drummer but I'm glad he wasn't hearing voices yet..
     
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  25. The Elephant Man

    The Elephant Man Forum Resident

    Agreed. It's a great intro for the song.
     
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