Wharfedale Linton Heritage 85th Anniversary Speakers

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by dolsey01, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. F1nut

    F1nut Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Mars Hotel
    I do trust my ears, which is why I know burn in is real.

    And now back to your regularly scheduled program.
     
  2. Balthazar

    Balthazar Forum Resident

    I have a guy who pays me to burn in my speakers. He's called "The Original Owner."

    What's with all the unnecessary talk about $4000+ speakers in the $1200 Wharfedale thread?
     
  3. Boyder

    Boyder Well-Known Member

    If the sound of a speaker changes from new, over time, can you please explain to me what actually happens physically , to make that change in sound??
     
  4. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Burn in is something that is multi-pronged.

    1) Some materials will soften up over time more than other materials. You can buy a set of Nike shoes and wear them daily for a year. Then you sign up for a 5 mile run. Ask your runner friends if it is a good idea to buy a brand new pair of the same Nike shoes and go on that 5 mile run or whether it is better to wear your daily Nike? If you want to know if break in is real - do a 5 mile run on Monday and then the same run with the brand new never been worn shoes on Tuesday. I would just like to warn you ahead of time to stock up on as many blister treatments as you can find before Tuesday.

    2) The ear needs time to adjust to the new speaker and the way it presents music.
    The ear adjusts to frequency response curves and frankly if a speaker is pleasing (regardless of accuracy) then that is the sound our ear/brain becomes accustomed to hearing. If the speaker we are used to is a little warm and tubby (say an old floorstander) - when a new speaker comes in (say a modern standmount with a metal tweeter) then the new speaker - even if more truthful - may sound lean and a little bright in comparison. It takes time for the ear to adjust and take that new sound as the reference point. The hope is the person listening will listen for 50-100 hours and "get used to" the new frequency response curve. And they also likely hope you keep it long enough so that you miss the return period.

    3) It's next to impossible to test unless you measure the speaker the first time you play and then every - say - 20 hours thereafter to see if there is a change...and who cares enough to bother? It still only applies to that one set of speakers.

    I have new speakers over the years and some have had break in that mattered and some I didn't notice. Even within the same company (but different speaker models).

    My old B&W speakers for the first 10-15 hours would exhibit a snap, crackle and pop sound when pushed a little bit. But then after that period of oddity the speaker never did it again. But that to me is very audible break in - something was perhaps rubbing or something. I would not expect break in on speakers designed as pistons or if using very stiff materials like Kevlar or metal tweeters.
     
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  5. Boyder

    Boyder Well-Known Member

    Breaking in a new pair of shoes of any kind is obvious, and I totally agree with your second paragraph.
    But a lot of consumers talk like there is some physical change that happens with the speakers, and you have to play them from 50 - 100 hrs to get them to sound right...
    I have always believed it's your hearing that adjusts
    JMO
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2019
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  6. F1nut

    F1nut Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Mars Hotel
    It's not just speakers, but since you asked about them. Capacitors forming need to settle down and drivers need to loosen up.

    I disagree that the ears adjust to the sound. Bright is bright, veiled is veiled, etc.
     
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  7. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Hello,
    The Dentons are already heavily discounted because music direct bought all of the stock and sell them as loss leaders. This puts their resale value high because their MSRP was relatively low to begin with.
    I did hear the Lintons extensively at an audio show and the experience has value because- 1) I am usually able to latch on to the essence of what a speaker sounds like because my initial impressions have been borne out through additional listening sessions at dealers and even owning certain speakers. Rarely do their characteristics change significantly upon hearing them again in a different setting- and- 2) If you can't get the sound together at a major event like North America's largest audio show- what trust should I have in them?
    My disapproval truly does not fall directly to the speakers themselves- they really aren't that bad- and seem a good value. I do have to object and caution people putting them into the same sentence as highly proven if not legendary speakers because of their similar cabinet size and finish.
     
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  8. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Good points, please let me explain. The adjustments I made in getting the most out of the Harbeth speakers I have owned are minor adjustments (e.g. placement, cables, etc) that optimized the sound to my preference- icing on the cake. They were already pretty darned great sounding to begin with.
    I do put value into audio show auditions because of the reasons mentioned in the post prior to this one.
    Again, I am not so much slamming the Lintons as I am slamming the idea that they can compete with speakers three times their price.
     
  9. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    You must have never owned a new subwoofer then. Subwoofers are the prime example of a speaker that needs break in- bigger suspensions, bigger cone areas, more surface area of surrounds that are somewhat stiff, etc.
    I have owned several new subwoofers and they all suck when you first start listening to them- weak and anemic sounding and hugely disappointing! You feel like returning them on the spot! But gradually as they accumulate hours the sound starts to bloom. It is the same way with every other pistonic driver.
    I am beginning to wonder how and why people are serious about audio if they truly cannot hear how different their speakers sound after a few hundred hours.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
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  10. Boyder

    Boyder Well-Known Member

    I cannot even respond to the sub woofer point, except I’ll say this, move a sub 1” and it will sound different.
    Wow, what’s amazing to me, is how many crazy ideas Audioholics come with, and how many guys, “and it’s usually guys” jump on board and agree. There is a lot that plays into how a speaker sounds, the room, placement, source, cables to a small degree, meaning this is another area that gets way out of hand.
    The % that anything changes after the above is so minute. Your mood probably has more to do with the change in sound, then the sound of the speakers actually changing.
    Enjoy the music, you’re in the mood for.
     
  11. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    I suppose that's fair but then remember Stereophile says the KEF LS-50 is class A at $1500US and that that is better than ANY speaker at $4,500 or $45,000 in class B. So they are saying the speaker is better than speakers at 3 times the price.

    I have made a point about this before - speakers makers have a certain house sound usually and if you buy into it then spending more on higher end models will seem like better value than if you don't like the house sound. I like the Magnepan 1.7 as a value for the dollar speaker. The issues I have with them are largely shared with small two way standmounts. At $6k however the 3.7 is up against stiffer competition and for me wouldn't be something I would like. The Magnepan fan however hears more bass and maybe more refinement and thus more value.

    Perhaps that is the same for a Harbeth owner. If they love the Compact 7ES-3 at $3600US - per Tone Audio Magazine (and whatever the price is in Canada) (I could find no date of publication) then a fan of that speaker may find the $15k 40.1 a good upgrade. But someone on the outside who is less a fan of the sound may find them a poor value.

    The problem with most of these things is most of us put a value to the dollar association on everything. I think the easiest example to this is when comparing a $1500 standmount and a $1500 floorstander.

    Consider comparing a KEF LS-50 with a Cerwin Vega CLS 215. They're both around the same price. For every advantage I can point to about the KEF - I can point to no less an advantage about the Cerwin Vega. And my dealer had both of these lines and Harbeth. Listening the CLS215 and auditioning the Compact 7ES-3 at double the money or my AN K/Spe at triple the money - well it's definitely not a slam dunk win for the Harbeth or my Audio Note. I would have to determine what the person wants from their speaker, the volume level, the room and the type of music they listen to. The CLS does things better than the standmounts.

    I looked up Herb's review of the Linton and he notes
    "In comparison [to the KEF LS-50], the Lintons sound less focused but much bigger and fuller and right-brain rich, with soul and good timbre. The KEFs play the sounds well, while the Wharfedales play the songs well.
    Read more at Wharfedale Linton Heritage loudspeaker Page 2

    That's arguably why I preferred the Audio Note AX Two over the pricier KEF-LS-50 as the KEF is arguably the better audiophile speaker, but the AX Two is the better music listener's speaker.

    I would not mind trying a set of Lintons. For $1200 and $1500 with the stands that sure looks like a good deal on paper.
     
  12. Slimwhit33

    Slimwhit33 Forum Resident

    Location:
    N America
    Eyeroll.. Avanti has been very careful to mention that his opinions are just that, his opinions based on his experiences.

    You're throwing out "The % that anything changes after the above is so minute. Your mood probably has more to do with the change in sound, then the sound of the speakers actually changing" as some sort of fact (it's most certainly not). In your opinion, that may be the case. In my opinion, that's nonsensical and antithetical to my experiences.

    So here we are...
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
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  13. Boyder

    Boyder Well-Known Member

    The great thing about audio, is that we all hear things differently, which is why there’s so many speaker manufacturers and audio manufacturers. And it’s OK to agree to disagree.
     
  14. Except speaker break in is objective. Its not about how you hear things. Speakers have components that are stiff and loosen up and break in with time. It's fact, not perception.

    Hell, I can hear my speakers change sound as they get warmed up each listening session.
     
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  15. Boyder

    Boyder Well-Known Member

    Hey fill your boots with your speakers warming up.
    Switch on the power come up with a needle on the record, and enjoy the music
     
  16. Fruff76

    Fruff76 L100 Classic - Fan Club President

    I can never figure out how engineers make incremental changes when designing, to compensate for break in.
     
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  17. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Good points again. If you like a certain brand's "sound", what you value may often become "more" of the same despite competition from other brands at varying price points. Others may value the different brands more because of their "sound".
    I completely agree.
    I tried to make it clear exactly what I did not prefer about the Lintons- and those qualities do have a subjective "preference" factor. In my case my preferences have been learned- by exposure at dealers, at audio shows, by friends and colleagues and trial by fire at home. I have learned to appreciate a certain "sound" regardless of brand- all based on experiences while listening carefully and thoughtfully.
    The interesting thing is that to achieve this sound in the current marketplace requires a certain investment, a threshold of price. Is this just a coincidence- or do "we" get what we pay for more or less?
     
  18. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Sometimes they miss the mark- big time. Speaker designers / engineers do not have time to let their new drivers break in prior to establishing their voicing curves and enclosure modeling.
    My former PSB towers are a case in point. They received great reviews and their flat response was highly touted as was their design process at the NRC facilities in Canada.
    They sounded a little thin at first but then sounded excellent for the first year (est. 500 hrs) . After that the bass response bloomed so much that it dominated the sound on certain recordings and I had to sell them.
     
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  19. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    I think we get what we pay for in audio because no matter what house sound any of us prefer - we can usually tell that the more expensive model is "generally" the better sounding model. So a $70k Vandersteen is better than the $2k Vandersteen - the $15k Harbeth is better than the $2k Harbeth, the $60k B&W is better than the $2k B&W. Even non fans of house sound of those speakers should still be able to acknowledge that the more expensive one sounds better than the cheaper one. The materials are almost always better - the caps, drivers, cabinets, cables, connectors etc.

    I think my AN E/SPx AlNiCo is substantially better than my previous AN E/Lx and so would others who are fans of the Audio Note E. Because they have spent real time listening to the speakers they can differentiate what those differences are. That is lost on people who are not fans of what they heard. So the perceived value of a $29,000 AN E/SPx or a $70,000 AN E/SEC Silver Sig is progressively worse value to a non diehard than to a diehard the same way as a $2k Vandersteen might make sens to me but not a $70k Vandersteen.

    In the case of Wharfedale - the Linton looks to me to be an affordable standmount of a throwback design - similar to what Tannoy and Klipsch have done bringing back their classic speakers with some updates. Give the people what they want.

    Comparing brand to brand is always harder as we both agree that house sound plays a role. But we have to do something to compare so I generally look at like for like and price to price. So one of the reasons I am always on about certain speakers is what does speaker A (my reference) do versus the new speaker B model at the same price. Go through the sonic traits, build quality, sensitivity, and the overall gestalt experience.

    So if one is comparing the Linton - it probably has to be compared to the P3ESR as this speaker is about double the price of the Linton. I would compare the Linton to my Audio Note AX Two.
    If looking to compare to your Super HL5+ or to the AN E/Lx ($6,500) then we would have to compare them to the Wharfedale Elysian 2 ($~7,200)

    Elysian 2 (right)

    [​IMG]

    The Elysian 4 is quite interesting as it claims to only need 15 watts per channel but it's up to $12,200CAD or so if going by direct exchange rates from the Euro. So these are definitely trying to go more upscale.

    I have not heard any of these mind you - the last one I heard was an affordable floorstander with an AMT tweeter - it was good value for the dollar though. And of course the Diamonds.
     
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  20. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    You raised some very interesting points here.

    Do you know this to be true? I would be surprised if the design process didn't allow for a break in period. Maybe not intentional, but it seems unlikely a designer slaps a driver in, listens for a couple minute/hours, and says, "that's it." Seems there's be a lot more to it, with a lot more listening over weeks or even months.

    This is a nice anecdote. And while I'm not questioning your hearing, unless you measured the speakers at the beginning and end of this period, it's just an anecdote.

    Here's an anecdote of mine that happened last night. I had been listening to my Revel F206 speakers for three or four months. Last night I decided to swap in my trusty Revel M22s, as I wanted to compare a song I had listened to the night before. My initial impression of the M22s (the first couple songs) was how flat and lifeless they sounded. By the time I finished listening, about an hour and a half, they sounded full of life, the way I remembered them. Did they break in, or did it take my ears an hour to acclimate to their sound? I think it was the latter, but not really sure.
     
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  21. Shiver

    Shiver Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Cost itself means diddly to me so long as the speakers are above a very basic level. I've heard multi-£k ones I couldn't live with. Not least there's so much variation in voicing - it's all so personal. One thing I've learned also is even if you can acknowledge that something is 'better' it doesn't mean you'll prefer or enjoy it more. Anyway.
     
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  22. Soundsense

    Soundsense Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado USA
    Yes!, and I am sometimes surprised at what kit I end up with, and which 'better' and more expensive components I've let go of in favor of cheaper or older stuff I like, that keeps me listening.
     
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  23. #1Zero

    #1Zero Well-Known Member

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I was looking at the 85th Dentons and started seeing the Lintons mentioned online. My concern is my room size, do you all think these Lintons would be too much for my 14' x 14' listening space? I also only have an 8' ceiling.

    Not sure if I should just stick to the smaller Denton or if I could get away with these. Thanks for any advice.
     
  24. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    you should be ok if you can keep the speakers at least two feet from side and back walls.
     
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  25. ChrisR2060

    ChrisR2060 Stereo addict

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I would not get the lintons unless your space is open or if it is acoustically treated.
     

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