You said it! While I don't expect "any" brand to have 100% positive feedback, McIntosh has long been a high quality product that is clearly in the "big boy" leagues of audio and even when I finally could afford to buy into the brand, I felt like maybe I was getting into more than I could chew myself. Now if any real bashing is deserved by the McIntosh brand, but I agree that they have somewhat cheapened their brand with the goofy things like the expensive clocks and the turntables that light up, but in the end who can blame them, as there is always "one born every minute"! I have a friend who is currently a TESLA fanatic. He paid over $100,000 dollars for their Model X SUV, or as I like to call it, "an overpriced golf cart on nitrate" and this guy won't stop with the hyperbole TESLA talk and he already has talked his girlfriend into the new model that is coming (I can't remember the model number?), which of course she is ALL about, but that's because HE is paying for it! On and on and on about this silly electric car and did I mention that he drives a whopping total "14" miles roundtrip each day to work and his girlfriend drives a total roundtrip of about "3". I haven't even mentioned what hell it is when we go on a road trip and how they have to tell us all about how they've mapped out the 6 places along the way with charging stations and how we need to stop at three of them to be sure that they don't run out of power. My apologies to any of you who have bought into TESLA yourselves. Be proud of your vehicle but please don't brag so much to your friends, as we don't really care!
I like the look of their classic tube amplifiers like the MC240 and would love to own one of their amps from that era. I agree with the comments that more recent faux designs like their turntable and the green led lighting below the tubes shows that marketing today plays an outsized role of the storied brand. I have always said that looks of gear does not matter, it's only about the sound. However, I would draw the line at their turntable, their current approach has lessened the appeal of brand to me... Fans of the brand should not feel singled out by this thread... Currently Harbeth, Spendor, AN UK, B&W, Klipsch, Line Magnetic, etc. are being discussed and dismissed elsewhere in this forum.
"McIntosh pioneered the sound of solid-state before the transistor was invented." It has always had a hard, aggressive, forward sound, with so-so resolution of subtle details and poor recreation of natural sounding textures and harmonics. Except for the above I LOVE McIntosh. They have always looked like a million bucks. And their FM tuners were sublime. I have an MR-80. I wouldn't mind at all giving their 25wpc tube monoblock amplifiers (from the 1960's) a listen, with Klipsch Cornwall speakers. Steve Hoffman loves THOSE amps.
About 10 years ago, my brother purchased one of their brand new integrated amps and he hated it. He thought it sounded like crap. He got rid of it a year or so later and purchased a flea powered integrated amp that was much cheaper than the Mac and loves it. His speakers are single driver and extremely efficient.
I think many (not all) McIntosh owners are quite overly sensitive to negative opinions on McIntosh gear. I love my Pass Labs Class A amp and feel it brings the perfect dynamics to my system. I take absolutely zero offense when someone states that Pass isn't their cup of tea. It's like saying blue is a better color than red. This is a matter of preference, not something to fight or argue over. We should embrace the fact that there are so many choices for us to try out in the audio world so we can all find our favorite sonic "color".
That seems contrary to how I have always heard Mac described. If anything I thought most folks found it to be a little soft and laid back. Just based on what I have heard from others and not my own opinion as I have not owned or really listened to it much. FWIW, I generally find that many folks opinions on almost any product tend to reflect their "value" proposition. My sister is one of those that can't wait to tell you what a fool you are for buying something "high end" because the one she gets at the dollar store is "just as good". She sure loves getting my hand me downs though!
I find that any fan of gear can take offense though. It's not really the brand but the person and since this hobby can attract those with strong feelings, it's not that out of the ordinary regardless of brand IMO
It's good to be reminded of people like your sister, because there's a lot of people out there that would look at any of our gear, regardless of brand, and think we've lost our minds.
I moved to McIntosh from Forte, B&K, and Rotel, for the specific reason that it had (with my other gear, in my room) a warmer, fuller, more natural sound than the others. The Forte was more airy and 3D with more precise imaging, but was too thin and clinical for me, the B&K was rolled off and dull sounding, and the Rotel was actually pretty good balance wise, but the Mac was better to my ears across the board. And this was an “ugly”/industrial looking 2120, which looked worse than any of the others. So I wasn’t swayed by looks. So YMMV, it’s hard to generalize.
My friend is a McIntosh die hard. His SS integrated amp sounds good, but not great to me. He loves it. I couldn't pry him away from Mac as a brand with a crowbar, but to him and I think a lot of McIntosh buyers it's about brand loyalty as well. And I totally get that and defend that, I can be guilty of that as well and there's certainly no harm to that sort of thing. Bottom line is, he's happy with it. Why don't I like it? While it sounds good, it doesn't sound appreciably better than most other solid state amps at much lower price points, to me. And their tube gear is IMO overpriced and as has been mentioned, the aesthetics are terrible. Look, if you want to make your entire line of SS products glow blue and green, be my guest, but green LEDs under the tubes is sacrilege. Lights dimmed, a glowing set of tubes is just magic. Drowning them out with campy green light is the worst. It could sound like a million dollars and that alone would annoy the hell out of me. That said, I am curious to hear how the Mac tube amps sound. One last 'gripe' is just an observation about many (not all) Mac fans. They are very much like Rolex fans. Mac is recognized outside of the Audiophile world like Rolex is known outside of the watch nerd world, and even casual music/watch fans know them. However, much like Rolex, casual audio consumers when asked will probably say McIntosh is the pinnacle of amps like a very casual watch guy will say Rolex is the top of the watch heap, because both companies have done a fantastic job branding themselves as such. But any serious watch nerd knows there are watch companies out there with far more important histories, and far higher end products than Rolex, and the same can be said of audio. But still, some casual watch guy at a cocktail party will drool over someone's Daytona even though the guy standing next to him is wearing a Patek Philippe Nautilus. I think a lot of people who aspire to own a Mac some day have never heard of most of the other high end audio brands. And again, there's nothing wrong with that, and kudos to Mac and Rolex for having positioned their brands such. It's just one of those things that, once you do know, you can't un-know it and it is a tad annoying.
Just since it's been mentioned a couple times I will note that the green lights under the tubes have an off switch. (Yes it's a terrible idea)
We are on the same page, stating our opinions about amplifiers, more than anything else. I totally agree that it is indeed difficult (and unfair) to generalize, because really, an amp and speaker work together to make their "synergistic" sound. But comparing McIntosh to Forte, B&K, or Rotel is also unfair. If McIntosh was not better in EVERY way (than those slightly above "mid-fi" brands), considering it's price and reputation, then the whole high-end audio industry could be written off as a sham. My comparison was between two very high-end brands of equipment, that compete in the same price range and to the same customers. Furthermore I made the critical error of not including "in my opinion" and "in the McIntosh systems that I have heard at audio shows" compared to what I hear in the customers' homes who have purchased Audio Note from me. So my comments were not based on any consistent or repeatable circumstances. Also, my first comment, in bold italics, was more of a joke (to entertain fellow non McIntosh lovers) than a statement of truth. I do apologize to anyone who loves their McIntosh equipment as much as I love my McIntosh MR-80 tuner, and my Audio Note amplifiers. And, one more unfair factor is the totally incomparable circumstance of the amps' power ratings: the amps at shows from McIntosh are typically 100's of wpc. Whereas the single-ended Audio Note amps are between 4 and 45 wpc.
This is true, and I'm a watch nerd too. The thing is, Rolex IS a great brand, and while no, it's definitely not the best, it is the brand that almost always gets people hooked on watches. Then they inevitably move up, but odds are, Rolex will always hold a place in their hearts. And when you buy Rolex, you're getting a great watch. Usually, when you're buying your first (watch, or really high end audio system) you do want that drool factor. I've got a bunch of watches, and my favorite is my Patek Aquanaut, but almost no one recognizes it, and the stainless case with a rubber bracelet and relatively nondescript face doesn't help. I have other more esoteric brands that I love a lot (A. Lange and Sohne, Jaeger LaCoultre, Audemars Piguet, etc.), but I also have Rolexes that I absolutely love, and tend to wear more than the other brands. The fact is, all of them tell time very, very well. I guess what I'm saying is that if you buy a Rolex, or McIntosh, you're buying a solid, quality product from a company that you can trust. Is it the best? No. It is a top quality brand? Absolutely. I also have a system with a Mac amp and pre. I LOVE IT. I would also LOVE to move up to a really high end esoteric brand, but like my Rolexes, I'm really happy with both the sound and the wow factor. The other factor is resale. Rolex and Patek are the main two brands that hold their value (or appreciate). Mac and B&W are probably the equivalent in the audio world in those terms. To me, that factors in too. I've been eyeing a Jaeger Lacoultre master grand reveil for a while now. It's an amazing watch. For about 25K used you get a watch with more complications and pretty much as high quality as a 100K+ Patek. Why haven't I pulled the trigger? Mainly because I don't think it's going to hold it's value like a lower end Patek or almost ANY Rolex will. God, it's a great watch though, but it's been sitting for sale for years, mainly because the market for a watch like that is tiny compared to a Rolex. I just like the fact that I could sell my MC-302 or my B&W 802D2's tomorrow, for almost what I paid for them. Could I do that with higher end audio stuff, sure, eventually, but the market is significantly smaller, just like the market for Jaeger.
I was a dealer in Manhattan and sold McIntosh right next to Krell and Bryston which both had completely different sonic signatures from Macs. The Mac "house sound" is incredibly low distortion and very full and musical. Their tube gear is great sounding and their big transistor power amps don't sound fat and dull like so many other high end power house products. If I could complain about anything at all it is that their new age plasticy looking plastic knobs and plain exteriors don't have any "bling" factor like in the old days. I really loved the knobs and glass fronts of the early products like C22 preamp and MX110 etc etc. Nowadays Macs look a bit cheap if you want my opinion. But that is the trademark look they went for and it has nothing to do with the performance which is exceptional by any standard. You could do worse than to have folks come over and watch as you swing open french doors to reveal a couple million dollars worth of McIntosh goods glowing from your architect provided built-in McIntosh racks of gear all wired up into your smart home. Then finish off the system with Wilson speakers for another million or so... Ahhh---decent sound---at last! When rich friends ask what to buy I simply say "McIntosh." And "Wilson." I know of dozens of other exciting companies and McIntosh is far from the only top brand out there. But you could do a lot worse.
I'm a watch nerd, hence the comparison, although I don't yet own any of the high end market stuff (you sound like you have a nice collection.) I chose the Rolex comparison because I see all those same parallels you do, and the same holds true with resale value. Rolex buyers aren't just buying into the hype, the hype is real insofar as you basically can't lose money on a Rolex sports watch. So its isn't just buying the name for name's sake. And they are undeniably great watches. That said, there are plenty of people who intentionally run counter to those types of brands, and you see it in watch nerd circles (yes there are Rolex haters) and the same for Mac. I think a lot of people push back harder on Mac than is warranted, because of the same factors. I'll be honest, it does turn me off to Mac a little bit and probably unfairly, in the same way that I deliberately bought a Zenith El Primero instead of a Rolex. The difference for me is, I'll still own a Rolex someday (I'm looking at you, Root Beer GMT) but I probably won't buy a Mac because I can always listen to my buddy's system if I get that itch.
It certainly is interesting how in the watch game actual quality/rarity means very little to resale value compared to the name of a few brands. It is an insane fact that the Jaeger Lacoultre you mentioned will plummet in value the second you slap it on the wrist. Meanwhile, several months ago my AD had a Root Beer GMT come in and the buyer it was tabbed for passed. He offered it to me on the spot. I could have slapped it on my credit card, walked out the door and immediately listed it for sale and made a couple grand in 48 hours. All because of the name Rolex, and the current state of demand for what is in fact not a rare watch. - I passed on it, because A) explain that deal to my wife, B) that AD would have never sold me a Rolex sports watch again and C) I might not have been able to part with it, being one of my grail watches. In that event, see point A lol.
Yeah, exactly. Believe me, I know a few Rolex haters! But I don't know one Rolex owner that hates their watch, even if it is the lower end of their collection. I know a guy that sold his entire watch collection for a Richard Mille made out of a meteorite. He loves the watch, but regrets selling all of his others to get it, and he's scared to wear it out anywhere. At first he mocked us (playfully, we're all friends) for still having crap Rolexes, now he's planning on buying a Submariner to just wear everyday. I've spent more than a nice car on my audio system, and I totally love it. But every now and then, I run into someone that has spent more on a cable than I've spent on my entire system and they look down on Mac and B&W like it's junk. Good for them I say. It doesn't make me enjoy my system any less.
LOL, been there, done that! Same thing happened to me 1.5 years ago with a new white faced ceramic Daytona!
I suspect all those ultra-high end Richard Mille watches are going to plummet in value one day...while they're fantastic pieces the designs are so polarizing and I just don't them being the sort of thing that people try to seek out on the vintage market decades from now. I'll bet the rest of his collection that he sold will be. "The ones that got away"
I believe it already has plummetted, but who knows? The market is so small for a 500K+ watch and it is so rare, that he says if he waits long enough, someone will buy it for more. I think he's nuts, but seriously, what do I know? I value things on the "If I had to sell it tomorrow, what would I get for it?" scale. If he HAD to sell it immediately, he'd probably take a bath. On the other hand, I sold a Sky Dweller I had for 2 years, in 2 hours, for more than I paid for it.
I agree with you. It's never going to happen. People in the tax bracket who can afford $500K+ watches don't usually get so attached to a single model like that that they will make an irrational used buy. And in a couple decades I just don't see some newly minted multi-millionaire saying "I grew up with that Richard Mille poster on my wall, and now I'm going to pay more than it was worth at retail". For the same reason he thinks it will be a money maker...the market for that sort of watch is so small there is virtually no chance it will appreciate in value. He's hoping for a one in a million unicorn buyer. People have been predicting the Rolex crash for a while, and it never happens. It's the one brand in watches that seems to be impervious to market fluctuations.
