What can we do about Ebay sellers that sell counterfeit CD's

Send them fake money.

 

You know, if it was so easy, it probably would have happened by now. Probably the law enforcement in the respective countries does not bother. Or the laws do not even exist. But even if they exist: you try enforcing copyright laws in China!

 

Hello, McFly. Yes, deffinately. The buyer should know what they are buying. Buying what is "suppose" to be a rare Japanese pressing real cheap from a guy in Russia is just stupid.

 

I take both sides. The buyer needs to be educated but that sometimes requires collectors keeping other collectors aware. Discussions like this are fine. But I'm not fan of vigilante tactics or sweeping assumptions because you never know if you're hurting a legitimate business person. Folks should impart first-hand knowledge not just information based on generalizations or third hand reports.

A friend always told me about buying collectibles: "if you don't know what you are buying get educated first." The other collecting adage is: "if its too good to be true then it probably isn't true".

By the way, as a rule I won't buy from these sellers myself. I've purchased items from many countries and there are plenty of legit sellers from all over. But if a mini-LP is selling for $60 and then a seller all of the sudden has multiples of that same item for $30 I'm staying away. No judgement involved just my personal preference to avoid potential disappointment. I have knowingly purchased several Russian Beatles mini-LPs and they're amazingly well made. I'm not fooling myself about their legitimacy or collectibility though.

 

I always found this site helpful when it came to figuring out which mini-lp cd's were fakes and which were the real deal.

http://www.minilps.net/

Some of the packaging used in the fake editions can be quite impressive!
I almost bought the "All Things Must Pass" RUSSIAN fake just for the packaging alone to hold the discs from my genuine CD release! (I decided against it however...)

Check it out:
http://www.minilps.net/harrison-george/all-things-must-pass-stch639

 

Sad thing is the counterfeits might not all come from the usual suspect countries. They might come from there originally then get re-sold by unsuspecting buyers. Caveat emptor.

 

Right. Where the law is clear and local enforcement is backing them eBay is swift. I tried to list several Beach Boys Unsurpassed Masters on eBay - figuring I bought them as collectibles and can sell them that way. They were taken off of eBay within 24 hours with pretty scary notification in my email. So anyone who thinks eBay wants to allow illegal things doesn't understand the ramifications to that business for such lack of action.

On the other hand look at the Russian download sites who stay in business, hiding behind copyright loopholes. EU copyright laws (or perhaps the enforcement of them?) appear to be a joke.

 

I couldn't agree more.

What may be illegal in the U.S. isn't necessarily illegal in those countries. That copyright stuff does indeed get tricky.

They DO some shady stuff though, like advertizing their CD's as being rare Japanese issues, when they aren't. That's what I don't like. They aren't necessarily junk either, some are quite nice. I too, have bought a few knowing what I was buying.

If you're a hardcore collector/buyer you should know what you're getting. If you're a casual fan and you buy one of these, chances are you won't be disappointed with what you get - You may never even know if it's legitimacy is questionable. If it's a title you can't get elsewhere it may not even be a bad alternative. If you're buying a $15 CD for collectibility from Russia though...

 

eBay won't take action against anyone selling any sort of music item unless the rights holder notifies them--and even then they are disinclined to do anything.

I mean, you want obvious? Try notifying them about a listing for a CD that doesn't exist legitimately, like the Vacation soundtrack. You will hear the sound of one hand clapping in return.

 

To get back on track with the OP's original point. If you do see a seller selling something that is fake, what can you do to stop it?

I know eBay took down a lot of fake designer handbags when the manufacturers started cracking down on fakes all over, including checking eBay to spot and take down fakes. However, I don't know how responsive eBay is to individuals who flag fakes.

BTW - Do you think these "rare promos" are real or fake? Ever seen promos like these? If fake, odd choice of titles (because they are not valuable titles).

http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/waccoemusic

 

I know they're all fakes, but I do absolutely love the Russian vinyl replicas of Beatles albums that came out 2-3 years ago, and which I received from Latvia (always sold around the $10 mark).
I mean, these bootleggers, wherever they came from, seemed to care more about their 'product' (sound wise but also the attention to detail of the replica sleeves) than the official labels.
Of course, these will be made obsolete by the real thing on 09-09-09... but I'll hang on to them for sentimental reasons.

 

I'm not even sure why anyone is bugged at eBay for allowing the listings. It's a big world out there and fake stuff is everywhere. If eBay had filters for stuff (which they've tried in various forms) the next thing you'd have is a bunch of threads complaining about "my item can't be listed." I've been buying music for a long time and the risk of getting a fake on eBay is far less than when I used to buy via mail order in the 70s - at least in my experience.

Those promos are definitely a tough thing to identify but I'm inclined to think that the low starting price and the way the seller lists them means that they're probably okay. Some of them are apparently CDRs (sometimes called acetate CDs - which I find odd) so for me already there's an implied risk involved. But I don't see the seller making any great claims and they don't appear to be big money makers. By the way, isn't selling promos illegal?

PS - if you haven't bought "acetate CDs" then be careful. They ususally have no protective layer and one little scratch on the playing surface and they crumble.

 

These are the sellers who often bring us such things as a 6 CD set of outtakes from "Sticky Fingers", or the first acoustic rehearsal sessions for the White Album. To be consistent, we would have to wash our hands of collecting such sets. If everyone stopped buying the unofficial session material on ebay, these sellers would be slowed down. Should we all vow to do just that?

 

You are confusing different things here. Russia is not part of the EU, it is neither a democracy nor does it have an independent judiciary. So whatever happens there, just happens, because the authorities have no intention of interfering. If they had, they would be gone in an instant.

The EU copyright laws are generally not that different from American laws in the case of counterfeits or bootlegs. They are illegal. However, as I always try to tell my American friends, Europe is a really diverse continent. And there is no EU police that ensures that all EU laws are applied in the same way in all countries. All member states of the EU have to enforce EU laws, but they also retain their specific legal tradition. For instance, Italy for a long time had very lax copyright laws, which they had to change because of the EU. And of course, some countries might not have legal and political structures that respond well to certain things, like counterfeits. For whatever reason. Mostly this happens in Eastern Europe, where the transition to democracy just happened 2 decades ago.

 

But there are US sellers selling these also. Now just say someone buys one of these and decides to sell it unknowingly to you. Are you still going to be sticking to your story?

 

Not much. Complain to ebay.

 

Another thing to bear in mind is that a lot of these bootleggers sell under multiple names -- if they get busted under one user name, they just keep selling under another, start a new one up, and continue business as usual.

eBay used to be pretty vigilant about these things like 10-12 years ago, but then again, there was a lot less of it to patrol then. Now they seem to not care. They have some sort of blanket statement posted that covers them from prosecution if a copyright holder complains, so what is their motivation to take sales money out of their own pockets?

 

Exactly, this is a big issue. I bet there are people here that are unaware they have this stuff in their collection because they bought off another collector who they trusted and didn't know any better. I bought a CD off a guy that was fake. He was adamant he bought it from CD Japan, so even some of the stuff from Japan will be counterfeit on occasion

 

Exactly, this is why the record companies should take aim at Ebay. Ebay are not doing enough to prevent this and should be held accountable. They are basically pimps.

 

On what do you base these statements?

 

To me, ebay is like the American Wild West. You cannot expect the U.S. Justice system of the 21st century to operate. You might get swindled in a poker game in the saloon on Main Street, or you might be sold something you have dreamed of getting for years, but could never find, in a hush-hush deal in the back room behind the bar of the same saloon.

If you are going into the saloon on Main Street in a frontier town in 1881 in the American West, you know what you are getting into. You won't get very far in that saloon complaining that the police and Federal Judges back in Boston, Massachusetts would handle things differently.

 

It's difficult for me to be sure but on face value they look legitimate to me.

 

I wish. That's what eBay used to be and I miss that aspect of it. eBay maintained for years that it was just a listing service - and that's when it was at its best. Though I still like eBay there are far too many hands in the pie, including the RIAA.

And you're right in an aspect. If you want good collectibles you have to be able to deal with the riff raff.

 

if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

let common sense be your guide.

 

audiofiles, here's an easy one for you to try. Try to get the fake Abbey Road black triangle CD off of eBay. After you feel like you're banging your head against the wall let's see how long you can last.

I'm not being facetious having tried exactly this a few years back to try and help buyers. Trust me, it's a no win situation for you my friend.