What kind of amp should I upgrade to?

You're wrong, chocolate is clearly superior to vanilla. I'm sure you haven't tried a really great chocolate correctly set up and fully broken in. What coffee are you pairing with your chocolate?

 

Alas, I've recently been forbidden both chocolate and coffee by my doctor. So, it's decaf for me from now on - ugh!

 

If you're talking about ProLogue 4 - yes. It's still available at UpscaleAudio in California. It's $899 - I got one from them, it drives my Zu Omen DWII, and I like it a lot.

However, it's a power amp only, and will require a separate preamp, which is another investment. I think the OP is looking to get an integrated.

 

It is one thing to buy an inexpensive headphone amp for the price that you got on your used purchase, bearing in mind that all you are doing is getting a small taste of tubes.

It is no different in buying an inexpensive turntable, all you will be doing is getting an idea for vinyl sound.

Buy an inexpensive steak, no matter how many bites you take, you are not going to come close to understanding the experience of dining on aged prime beef at Peter Luger's Steak House in N.Y.C. At best, you will understand that beef comes from some sort of cow.

That's the problem of getting a "taste" of anything, it is a double edged sword, you can understand some things but come away believing that you think, as in the above example, that you are not really that impressed with steak, and that all the buzz is over rated.

Getting tube sound through headphones and getting tube sound through speakers is another totally different thing.

Forget about tubes, going from listening to digitized music from a player and earbuds, is not the same as being able to accurately recreate that same experience, with that level of detail, outside of your head is an entirely different thing. And, that is with using SS equipment.

My most sincere suggestion to you, is to understand what good SS can bring to you table, before even thinking about the introduction of tubes into the picture!

By the way, using an analog extension cord, with a 3.5mm mini-phone plug on one end and a set of RCA's (about $8-$15) on the other end, you can plug your smartphone or player into the Outlaw or the Peachtree (which has it's own built-in class-A headphone amplifier). I have guests come over to visit and I let them plug their own $100 smartphones into the Peachtree iNova, and let them hear their music in a way that they have never heard it before.

I started out with digital music on a Samsung player. I bought my first Peachtree integrated amplifier, the Nova, so that I could plug my player into an amplifier, so that I could play it through speakers in my listening room. I started out with a pair of Polk Monitor 70's, Series 2, that I bought from NewEgg for $200/each.

I was very happy with the sound.

Tubes are a very expensive, finicky and time consuming. You budget, is hardly allowing enough to do a decent SS transition from your current level of equipment, let alone jumping into the tube universe. Trust me, this is something that you simply do not want to do.

Tube amplifiers use small signal tubes and also large power tubes. Without going exotic, common every day power tubes will run you $20 for an EL34 to $40 for a KT88. These will be modern day production, made in China. They will last you between 1,000 - 2,000 hours before replacing them and a class A/B amplifier uses four of these tubes.

They are light incandescent light bulbs, when they burn out, they need to be replaced. And, they don't always burn out at the same time. If you are running an amplifier for 500-hours and one of the tubes burns out, it is better to replace all of the tubes in your amp, reserving the three still functioning tubes to replace the next tube in your amp that burns out or becomes otherwise defective.

The small signal tubes in your amp and typically they will be three or four of those, will generally last far longer and not cost nearly as much. They will typically by 6AX7's and 6AU7's. You will of course need to have back ups of these tubes also.

If you want to do tube rolling, you will need extra tubes to roll as well.

Hope you are getting the idea here...

The only thing that you should be considering is a integrated amplifier that has either a class A/B power amp section (as in the Outlaw or the earlier Peachtree's), or one that has a class-D power amp section, such as the later Peachtree's.

I leave all of my SS preamps, integrated amps and power amps that are currently in the system on 24/7, unless I am away for an extended period of time, which I almost never away for long periods of time.

Most consumer speakers today, like your typical tower speakers, are designed to be used with SS amps. Meaning they sound good with SS amps.

When that is the case, you will gain little or nothing using a tube amplifier on these.

Benzion did mention that your current speakers are 4-Ohm nominal impedance, which makes the different than most average HT tower speakers, which are 8-Ohms. Most average AVR and integrated amps on the consumer level market are NOT designed to drive 4-Ohm speakers.

Both the Peachtree (newer models, like the used Nova125, with a class-D power amp section, the older Peachtree's are designed to run under a 6-Ohm load) and the Outlaw's are designed to drive both a 4-Ohm and 8-ohm load.



The speakers closest to the TV are Polk Audio's flagship speakers, they retail at $4,000/pr., they have never been connected to a tube amp.

They have always been powered by the 250-Watt (into 8-Ohms or 400-Watt into 4-Ohms), SS Emotiva XPA-2 generation 1, power amp that is located below the TV, on the right bottom shelf.

They XPA-2 has been mostly constantly running 24/7 since late 2013. Let's say that you were running a tube amp, where the power tubes might last for 2,000 hours. You will hit that 2,000/hr. mark in just 83.3 days. Something to think about. I paid $700 for that amp, new, back in 2012.

I have no reason to burn tubes running these speakers as they are almost always playing something 24-hours each day.

On the other hand, the speaker (on the right, in the photo below) is one of a pair, that I only run with tube amps.



Please take these things into consideration, along with recommendations from your other forum members.

S&G

 

But, the OP still wants to do HT, so for the time being, he can use his current AVR as both a preamp for the Four (or Five) and he can also use it to decode his surround sound.

Win, Win, Win.

 

Great analogy.

 

I have quite a few spare preamps and would only shop for a power amp, though I am not convinced if PL is for me ...

 

This is a great post. I loved reading it. And I was happy I just ordered an SS amplifier. With a toddler in the house I don't have enough money or time to devote to a great tube system. My day will come but not now. I have several SS-only years ahead.

 

Depends what you like and what your speakers want.

 

Personally, I would never mix AVR components with hi-fi audio, but that's just me...

 

I don't think my interest level in playing with the tubes is all that high and there are good sounding SS amps out there ...

 

By all means...

 

He's still going to like that Little Dot - it's a good sounding amp with the 600's and 650's, and the price is right. Taste or no taste - my prediction it will be a keeper.

 

Actually, no HT for me Must have misread my Onkyo receiver as being an AVR. It is just 2-channel.

 

No HT for me either. Hell, I do not own a single TV set!

 

It is a matter of HOW you mix those components. This is part of the "audiophile voodoo".

It depends on the equipment that you are using for either or both.

A SET amp may not be the best thing for loud, dynamic HT, plus you may not want to run your NOS Western Electric 300B tubes, just to watch a movie.

Some speakers, which are primarily designed for home audio, may not be the ideal choice for a HT application.

I use my front and my rear speakers and SS amps for both HT and stereo. I have absolutely no issues in doing this. If I was only doing one or the other, I would still be using this same gear.

All of my sources, run through the iNova, as a central point of control, for source selection, DAC and class-A preamp. All power amplifier's in the system are outboard power amps.

Think of my system as your car, you drive in NYC traffic with a manual transmission (IIRC), something that would be horrifying to me! Don't get me wrong, I like driving a sports car with a manual transmission and clutch, but NOT in city traffic!

I like to think of operating my audio system, like operating a sports car, more complex but more rewarding to drive.

The only thing that I need to add to the system (since an AV receiver is totally out of the question for me and my purposes, but might otherwise be perfectly fine for most at home), is the 4k processor to decode the surround sound. I have two analog channels on the iNova, one is used for the output of the phono preamp and the other is the front channel output from the processor.

I control the front L+R speakers from the volume control on the processor and the center, rear channel and sub levels are controlled by the processor's remote.

The Oppo UDP-203 is connected to the processor by HDMI out/in. But, there is also a digital out which goes directly into a digital in on the iNova, so I can use its ESS Saber DAC, which was their top of the ESS line at the time that the iNova and Oppo '95 were manufactured.

By having a processor in the circuit, I can send a full range signal from the iNova into the processor and use its bass management features to direct only the portions of the source that are 40-Hz and below to the processor's LFE's channel, so that the same sub set up that I use for HT, will be applicable for stereo as well.

Just like driving a sports car along a curvy mountain road, is more fun and requires more skill that driving an american luxury car along the rural interstate highway, with the cruise control full on.

Both are interesting and pleasurable experiences and can get you to the same destination in the end. But both provide a different and unique experience along the way.

 

I understand your need for HT - you run a motel. I do not own a single TV set - I need AVR like a snake needs gloves and boots.

 

Please understand, solid state amps are not for everyone just the same that tubes are not for everyone. Some speakers found excellent with good SS amplifier's and some definitely do not!

Most modern day speakers sound fine with SS, so that is not an issue.

Other speakers, namely very high efficiency speakers do not sound as good with solid state (unless we are talking about Pass Labs type of SS, even then...), they are better with tubes.

If you music, combined with SS amplifiers, pleases you, then there is no reason to even be considering tube amplification.

I have a nice curved screen 65" 4k TV set, but I don't watch commercial TV, not ever!

Running a small 20-unit motel, I provide DirecTV for all of our guests at no extra charge, but I don't/won't even have a sat box in my audio/video room. I provide the "Ultimate" package four our guests viewing pleasure. It is the same exact package that they offer as their top of the line package for home viewing, something like 150-channels, plus sixteen HBO and Cinemax channels and music channels. But this I provide for dour guests, I refuse and have never watched any of them.

I only watch movies, navigate on screen menu's, Chromecast of YouTube video's, and displaying album art of streaming Pandora One (now called something else).

I thoroughly enjoy watching movies (& other video), but absolutely despise commercial TV, simply will not watch it, nor will I ever!

Back in the mid 70's, before VCR's and VHS tapes were readily available, we used to screen 16mm prints of theatrically released movies in our 23' living room using Bell & Howell movie projectors.

In the VHS days, I owned and catalogued 3,700 pre-recorded VHS tapes in my collection, before selling them off.

Myself and my guests watch movies in my office all of the time.

 

I have been an audio Research fan for quite awhile, and I can use them as an example. My all tube VS110 sounded very much like a good SS amp. My SS (yes ARC has made some really great SS amps!) sounds very tube like. My Ref75SE is so holographically amazing that I never even give a thought to what’s inside!

The common denominator for all these is the use of tube preamps (ARC SP16, LS27, or Rogue RP5 - well, technically the LS27 is a tube buffer feeding a J-fet). If I was giving the OP advise, it would be to save for a nice tube Preamp (look for a Rogue Perseus and run to grab it!) and feed a nice, much less expensive SS power amp. I honestly think the preamp is where most of the magic is really made.

My only complaint about the LD headphone amp is that I wish it had a preamp output. Seems easy to add to a headphone amp.

I will also add, not to put any thought to the tube on the Peachtree, it is pretty much a gimmick and I don’t know anyone that can honestly say they hear a difference when it is added. Even Peachtree says they got rid of it because it badly hurt the noise floor of those amps. Of course whether the noise floor is 90db or 115db is not likely to matter on any source.

 

Would it not make more sense to make tubes sound like tubes, and SS like SS?

When I want an amp that sound like tubes - I will get a tubed one. Same for SS, so I really see no point...

 

The Little Dot MKii has it. I've got one, but don't use it - it's only got one input, not much of a preamp it makes. It does a fine job as headphone amp, though.

 

To me the point is to make an amp sound as good as possible to the designer. The point is that the listener will decide if they like it or not. I don’t really believe there is a “tube sound” or a “SS sound”. Those are labels we put on them based on our own biases.