What network streamer are using with your Audio Note DAC ?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by smoothgrooves, May 3, 2022.

  1. Utilityman

    Utilityman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    I did try a network bridge however the EVO Reference music server won me over, again a product my AN dealer was happy to endorse. Also houses it’s own Roon core, storage facility and will rip CD - has now made my Nucleus an expensive core/storage facility which was almost redundant however I utilise this with other Roon end points in the house. Very close to an end goal form my streaming requirements.
     
    Thierrymex, Gjo and Encore like this.
  2. Encore

    Encore Forum Resident

    Very interesting. Hadn't heard of that before. Thanks.
     
    Utilityman likes this.
  3. smoothgrooves

    smoothgrooves Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norfolk
    Any other Network Streamer recommendations? After all the AN DACs are fussy beasts hence the need for a solid transport.

    No? Most of your running CD Players into it then?
     
  4. Encore

    Encore Forum Resident

    Can you tell some more about you EVO Ref? Which version do you have? What are its advantages over the Nucleus, SQ-wise and features?
     
  5. Encore

    Encore Forum Resident

    Have tried this now, and it did indeed give nice improvement :) I hope my electrician can make a permanent installation out of it.
     
  6. smoothgrooves

    smoothgrooves Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norfolk
    For those of you that might want a low cost almost reference transport which can make the most out of your AN DAC - why not try the Audiolab CDT 6000?

    Watch this:

    I'm going to buy it and see how a streaming bridge compares to it.
     
    Encore likes this.
  7. Utilityman

    Utilityman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    First is to explain the why;
    So my dilemma was streaming using a Roon endpoint at acceptable levels/quality vrs my CDT 2 into the DAC 4. I was faced with accepting an input change basically swapping cable each time I wanted to listen to either source - the quest was to find a longer term solution as my wife also enjoys the system, who wants/insists! on the convenience of Roon streaming and to cap it off we have a social area in the same room, again convenience a very large factor . The EVO AEON came as close to the CDT 2 as a source - the rest is history and we are delighted with the results. Given a dedicated room I would move up the transport range to a CDT 4 which would be my end point and use streaming as another source. As for comparing the EVO to Roon Nucleus - no comparison in my system, the EVO provides the same realness & musicality I seek in a system.
     
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  8. Tourswede

    Tourswede Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin
    I use a Node 2i into a 0.1x DAC and although it doesn’t do what the turntable does I’ve been reasonably happy to stream this way. If I was to keep the 0.1x for now… what would be good streamer up to around the 1000/1200 euro mark?
     
  9. smoothgrooves

    smoothgrooves Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norfolk
    I wouldn't know around that price point - maybe an Auralic Aries - so far it seems you have to go >3000 to satisfy an AN DAC. But, you will end up sacrificing the amazing GUI from Bluesound - the only way around that is to use Roon instead (because a lot of these hi-end bridges do not have the best user interface - and that includes that from dCS). I will add that I only use Qobuz and I'm quite happy using the rather utilitarian dCS Mosaic interface in the sense that it serves its purpose without fail or dropouts - but it's certainly not up to the UI of a Bluesound or Sonos etc.

    I do know that there is an under-the-radar hi-end transport if you can find a used Marantz NA7004 - although that's restricted to Airplay and UPnP.

    I would also say - get used to what a high quality transport sounds like by investing in the low cost Audiolab 6000 CDT - then use that as reference. if you are streaming from Qobuz and like certain tracks - download those tracks and burn them onto CD - then play them through the Audiolab. Admittedly a bit of a faffing around - but this will serve to let you know what the difference in SQ is using the same music thus proving the transport does matter!
     
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  10. Tourswede

    Tourswede Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin
    Thanks for the insight! I guess I don’t want to faff around really. I got the 0.1x before prices and brexit so that was a good deal. Since then I have borrowed the node 2i from a friend and it could not be easier to install and a decent app to remote control. I only use qobuz.

    Perhaps I should wait until I have funds to make a considerable upgrade on both dac and streamer. It’s not that I’m unhappy with the current sound but if someone insisted that throwing a grand +- would make a big difference to the 0.1x I would consider.
     
  11. smoothgrooves

    smoothgrooves Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norfolk
    Others may have a better experience of something low cost and effective. Or someone may chirp in and say your Node 2i is good enough (just not me due to my recent experience). There are many ways to skin this cat I suspect in order to get a significant better sound for your price point.
     
    Tourswede likes this.
  12. Encore

    Encore Forum Resident

    The EVO is USB output only, isn't it? Do you connect it to a USB->SPDIF converter?
     
  13. Utilityman

    Utilityman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    Yes that’s correct along with AN Sogon/ Lexus USB cable
     
  14. Encore

    Encore Forum Resident

    Which converter do you use? Is it powered from the EVO?
     
  15. Utilityman

    Utilityman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    Hi
    Yes it’s powered from the EVO, it’s a CYP AU-D6-384 USB Digital Audio Converter (384kHz/24-bit) - admit that this was dealer install so no real thought from myself but to reiterate it all sounds perfect for my requirements.
     
    Encore likes this.
  16. Nickje

    Nickje Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Netherlands
    Before the DAC not only the streamer/transport is responsible for the sound quality of your setup, but the whole network chain! Like streamer 60% - network 40%.

    I have a Dac3.1x/II with the Mano Ultra mk2 streamer with all the extra goodies. The Mano performs way above its price point, like a 5k streamer. It’s Raspberry based with Audio GD parts for example the beautiful R-core psu. I also have a Furutech inlet and SR purple fuse in it. It plays wonderfully but I missed some magic which you would expect from a AN level 3 dac. It took a while before I believed what others told me. First step was a extra network switch the preferred Cisco 2960, with a cheap powercord. Later a better powercord, this made a big difference. Later adding a Lpsu and a second even better switch.

    Now what is interesting is that literally EVERYTHING in the network is noticeable. My current setup: Provider modem > router > Cisco 2960 with Lpsu > Meraki ms220 heavy modded with Oxco clock feed by FARAD lpsu with all the goodies. Even the powercords and DC cables have serious impact on the sound strangely! Replacing the internal wiring of the Meraki to Mundorf was a reallly nice upgrade!

    What is key:
    Audiograde or HQ networkswitch with a decent Lpsu close to streamer. The last meter Ethernet cable between switch and streamer must be really high quality, like AQ Vodka or even better. Use really good Lpsu’s or like Small ifi psu’s for the provider modem and router. Even if you have like me 5 network devices in a row, EVERY psu is noticeable, the one closest to the streamer is most important. I think it has to do with noise leakage into the streamer and eventually the dac.
    There is allot of information online about this. There are allot of discussions, since Ethernetswitch should be galvanic isolated blah blah. I can GUARANTEE every piece in the network chain makes a noticeable difference.

    Like you guys said I agree AN dacs are really sensitive to jitter and noise, so let’s feed it with the cleanest signal we can deliver for maximum performance and enjoyment.

    All I can say is, just TRY it! My experience last 1.5j is telling me that the gap between streamer and a decent AN CD transport is minimal. This way streaming is getting magical instead of quite good
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2022
  17. smoothgrooves

    smoothgrooves Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norfolk
    So "why" are AN DACs sensitive to jitter? Is it because they rely heavily on the digital transport to carry the clock signal cleanly and reliably to the DAC (much like old DACs used to do in master / slave fashion)?

    Also ... I assume you used a good CD player as a transport before choosing your streamer (which at first did not bring the magic out of the DAC) - and then put in all the networky tweaks to bring it up to CD transport standards (or near as damn it).

    You've put a lot of effort into your streamer / network - does streaming direct from Qobuz equal the sound quality of your previous transport? In particular streaming direct from the Internet from the likes of Qobuz - I don't mean streaming from local FLAC files.
     
  18. Encore

    Encore Forum Resident

    Very interesting! Thanks. Just confirms that I still have a lot to do on my network. And like you, I have experienced that everything matters.

    One thing I would add is to also try to insert fiber-optic cable into the network and overall avoid long lengths of Ethernet cable. That made a big difference in my system.
     
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  19. smoothgrooves

    smoothgrooves Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norfolk
    What are your 5 network devices in a row ... ? The router, the switch, the streamer? That makes three network devices if that's what you mean.

    In a way it's worrying how many things you have to think about in the chain - makes me want to take chinks out of the chain and shorten it - thus minimising all the upstream cascading problematic possible concerns and time consuming over-tweaking
     
  20. Encore

    Encore Forum Resident

    Yes, it is definitely not user friendly. I used to scuff at CD's and CD transports, considered them an obsolete and inherently fragile way of storing and reading bits. However, after I have learned how much needs to be tweaked in order to get good sound from streaming, I no longer do that. I fully understand if people don't want to bother with all the necessary tweaks and just go for a good CD transport instead. Although I would add that I have generally not been impressed with the CD-based playback that I have heard at dealers and at shows. Compared to my own setup, that is--I have also not been impressed with streaming-based playback at shows.

    I have two EtherREGEN switches, and of course the switch in my router. I don't plan to get any more switches but I do plan to get an LPSU for both EtherREGENs (I only have for one of them now) as well as for my router. In addition, I plan to have my electrician install fiber-optic between the router downstairs and my music room. Finally, I also know that I should upgrade the very old Macbook Pro that runs my Roon Core. So I end up having spent a sizeable chunk of money on just transporting the analog squarewave stream to my DAC.
     
  21. NapaBob

    NapaBob Forum Resident

    Location:
    Napa Valley CA USA
    Prompted by this thread, I decided to try some new streamers. As I had mentioned before, my current system is Sonos, but since Sonos is not ‘Roon ready’, I cannot ‘Group’ a Sonos box with a different Roon end point and thus cannot use Roon to incrementally upgrade the system. I needed to upgrade at least 3 systems to make this a worthwhile experiment. Through some lucky borrowing and buying used, I have now added:
    Auralic Aries G2.1 to the system with a DAC 4.1x
    dCS Network Bridge to the system with a DAC 5
    Naim NDX 2 to the system with a DAC 0.1x (A surprisingly excellent DAC)
    Gold Note DS-10 to the system with a Cobra

    Too early for any SQ comments, but I did run into something I really don’t understand. Many of us have run into the situation where if you turn on the AN DAC before the AN Transport, the DAC starts chattering, like a relay that is opening and closing rapidly. Easy to stop – you turn off the DAC, turn on the transport, turn the DAC back on and everything is fine.

    After I got everything installed, I had all 4 systems set up as a Roon group and music played. But to my surprise, a minute or 2 after the music stopped, the DAC 4 went into the relay chatter mode. Even though the Aries was still powered on. Start the music again and everything goes back to normal. And if that isn’t strange enough, if I ungroup the Aries/DAC 4 from the other systems, it works perfectly by itself. None of that chatter thing.

    Anyone have a clue?
     
  22. Encore

    Encore Forum Resident

    AN DACs are very sensitive to fields from other devices' PSUs. So in first instance try to move all other devices as far away from the DAC as possible.

    Secondly, have you checked if you have a ground loop? There is surprisingly little focus on this, I feel. Only one of your devices should be connected to the earth prong if their chassis are connected through the interconnects. After I discovered I had a such a ground loop between my DAC and amp and disconnected earth from the DAC power cord, I got a decrease in my DAC's tendency to chatter, AND I got a significant increase in SQ.

    Moreover, I would advice against your normal procedure with turning the DAC off and then on again. One of AN's employees has specifically warned me about that in a facebook discussion about tuberolling, because turning on a DAC that is at operating temp is very hard on the 6X5 tube. I have a suspicion that you may also have a ground loop here if that's a recurring problem. If you get the problem, simply disconnect the digital cable going into the DAC and plug it back in.
     
  23. Encore

    Encore Forum Resident

    I just reread your last paragraph and realized that you meant ungroup in Roon. That is strange indeed. What are you using for your Roon Core?

    I don’t really have a clue what’s going on but it once again shows that we are not just talking bits like sending bits to a printer. Something physically happens that causes a change in the analog square wave stream that the Auralic is sending to your DAC, making it unable to lock on to it, and the cause seems to be located upstream from your Auralic.
     
  24. howiebrou

    howiebrou Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cloud Nine
    I am about to embark on an AN dac journey. My setup is Streamer (with USB output only) so I bought a Denafrips Gaia DDC to convert and reclock the signal from the streamer before I send it to the dac (which hasn't arrived yet). I was told by people far more knowledgeable in CAS than me that spdif is particularly prone to jitter, as many have said already, and that you need to reclock it before sending it to the AN dac, hence the Gaia. Question. I have the option of spdif or aes/ebu digital inputs on my dac. The dac will be about 1.5 m from the gaia but if you allow for twists and turns, a 2m digital cable would be easier to manage. Does this mean AES/EBU is the better choice for me?
     
  25. DaleClark

    DaleClark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    I guess one could buy a high quality streamer and save money overall by the improvement that is made using their existing Dac.
     

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