What SACD players don't convert DSD to PCM?

Room correction is another bit of hi-fi industry hype to grab more of your cash. Speaker positioning and suitable speakers is far more important. Adding/removing soft furnishings is another option. More complicated electronics in the signal path = worse sound IMO. Stick to DSD and run through a passive pre-amp and compare. More DACs are offering DSD for a reason but missing a trick by not having HDMI connection to facilitate SACD transports.

 

Absolutely. I guess the case where someone has 5 large speakers all in the exact same distance from the listening position is extremely rare. I usually switch back to pure DSD when listening to stereo, but mostly because I can, not because I can tell a significant difference.

 

See above.

And I have to say, I had some pretty good results with Audyssey on my new Denon AVR. The sound of the center and rear speakers has become fuller and at least for movies it's a significant improvement (but it can be for music as well).

 

Yep, and I doubt it can be too expensive now for one or two HDMI inputs to go into a standalone DAC. Bryston have done it with their BDA 3, but that's it for two channel I think. I think you need to buy a de-embedder to facilitate HDMI otherwise. On the bright side, a damn sight cheaper than the £3000+ for the Bryston.

I used the Audyssey MultEQ XT32 that came in the Onkyo TX-NR818 for a while, which was very impressive, but my flat, or rather the neighbours would be hearing rather too much impressive bass or big bangs in movies. Had to switch it off in the end, but great addition to an already great amp. I just need a bigger place!!

 

Do you have any experience with Dirac room correction? To say "room correction is another bit of hi-fi industry hype" as a definitive statement is incorrect IMO. You're basically saying that all room correction systems are hype. Some room correction systems are better than others and some I have experience with were not to my liking. But Dirac is the first room correction system that I use for both stereo and multichannel music listening.

My room is 13'D x 17'W which is open on the right side. I have positioning and "suitable" speaker quality covered just fine . There is quite a bit of "soft furnishings" and a heavy area rug to help tame wood floors and three windows. But that doesn't help much IMO. Without Dirac the SQ in my room loses focus especially the low bass from two Rythmik F12SE subs. Activate Dirac and focus is restored and the bass directed to the subs is now centered in the room without a hint of boominess (word?). Having "more complicated electronics" in the signal path is not an issue in my system and doesn't degrade the SQ at all.

I've had numerous passive preamps with HT Bypass in my system over the years. I've used these preamps with DSD converted to analog by several Oppo players (83SE, 95 and 105D). I found the preamps to sound excellent for the most part and much preferred them over the AVRs (used as prepros) or the prepros that were in my systems at that time. But since adding the Emotiva XMC-1 with Dirac the need to have a preamp for stereo music is no longer needed. I did extensive A-B comparisons with the XMC-1 between DSD Direct (HDMI) and PCM with Dirac (HDMI), much prefer using PCM with Dirac. So I have done the comparisons between preamps with DSD and processors with room correction using PCM. Have you done the same? Or are you just making the assumptions in your above post without actually hearing Dirac and other room correction systems in your room?

 

Those tasks remain essential but you cannot change the dimensions of your space and "adding/removing soft furnishings" is completely impractical at low frequencies where their dimensions must approximate a significant fraction of a wavelength. (Come to think of it, their size would change the dimensions of the room's useful space.)

No added or complicated electronics required. Simply different software/firmware.

 

I get what you are saying here - digital room correction can, if implemented poorly, insert an additional processing step in the signal chain (for example if you implement it through a digital signal output over analogue, then into an AV receiver that re-digitizes it to do room correction, and then spits out another analogue signal to your speakers). It also, again if used improperly, be a "cart before the horse" attempt to compensate for more basic problems with speaker placement, room reflections, and so on. (The Computer Audiophile forums seem full of this kind of thing.)

However, as @Kal Rubinson and others have noted, room correction does not have to be used this way, and isn't a cash grab. Virtually no room is ideal, and any of us have living situations and financial constraints that make it impossible to listen in a room that's symmetrical, with the optimal ratio of dimensions, and so on. If you can use room-correction software that works on the signal in the digital domain, before any D/A conversion, it can make a huge difference in the quality of the sound.

Of course, if you have an all-analogue signal chain for vinyl, I get that you wouldn't necessarily want to insert a piece of digital equipment just for room correction. But for digital sources I think it's the wave of the future (not to mention the present).

 

Very well said and I agree 100% !

 

Well after literally months of seeing none on ebay, one popped up and I snagged it. Hopefully the seller is a fast shipper! I'll have to order another set of interconnects from Blue Jeans Cable but I'm glad to have it, I've always been a huge fan of the Pioneer Elite line back when I was into high end DVD playback.

 

Congratulations, enjoy! I found I get excellent sound via the Signal Cable Silver Resolution interconnects ($89), and I recently switched to Morrow MA-2 cables which I got at the bargain price of $50 here on the Forum (normally $159). I was kind of hoping the Morrow's wouldn't best the Signal Cable since they cost 80% more at full retail, but darn if they do!

 

Since I'm still working on my main components, I'm not going overboard on cables. Blue Jeans Cables offers well built cables that sound good to my ears, so that'll do. Once I have every big component dialed in, then I can worry about things like upgrading interconnects.

 

My Luxman player has a switch for DSD/PCM. I haven't tried changing it as sounds pretty good to me.

Will have a play

Does it depend on the disc ?

 

Oppo BDP-103 gives you the option to convert to PCM or output DSD.

 

My cheap Sony BDP S6200 can do DSD direct from HDMI. If I remember it lets you select between PCM and DSD for SACD. My Onkyo receiver definitely shows it as receiving DSD.

I believe it only allows this through HDMI though.

 

Yeah, the cheap Sony Blu-rays that can play SACDs will output DSD over HDMI if you tell them to, or they can convert it to 24/88 PCM if your receiver can't handle DSD.

 

Because its all in the mind.

 

With all speakers set to large in the Pioneer DV-563A menu.

 

Sony XA5400ES but converts to PCM if used with Sony ES receiver however the combo sounds excellent.

 

Just to follow up, I finally got the Pioneer installed in my system. I'm playing the Wish You Were Here SACD and it sounds sublime. Warm and full and analog-like but not mushy or thick. I'm going to have to find some excellent classical SACDs because while I prefer vinyl for pop/rock/jazz, to me high quality digital is absolutely the way to go for classical. And since many of the native DSD recordings available are classical, it makes even more sense to make SACD my classical format of choice.

 

My Anthem ARC begs to differ. I'm in a small, irregular room and it is a right pain in the ass - even with treatments, REW, and tons of hours dialing things in - to get it perfect. ARC has taken my system from good to great, so much so that I want not for any other type of preamp. Maybe when I get to a larger more "normal" room it won't be necessary.

And I have heard this same exact setup with a tube phono pre, tube pre, and separate amp so there was no "digitizing" the signal whatsoever. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, processing the analog signal and converting it back from D to A has not changed the sound one iota. AAA pressings sound exactly as they did with a fully analog chain. I know, I listened to them dozens and dozens of times in both setups. If anything, those AAA titles sound better now thanks to DSP magic doing it's thing.

Full disclosure - I was of the exact same opinion as you prior to running ARC upstairs in our home theater. It doesn't smear the sound or make it sound the least bit artificial. It's fabulous tech and will only get better as time moves on.

Room correction can be a huge benefit.

 

Well said! If you notice Classicrock did not respond to my post asking what experience he has with room correction. I'm assuming his opinion is one with no experience by the lack of any response.

 

Glad to hear you're enjoying the Pioneer! It's sonic abilities with DVD-A is also quite stellar. I got the David Bowie "Station to Station" deluxe box this weekend, and the stereo hi-res version of the album sounded superb, as did Donald Fagan's The Nightfly. When I return home next week I'll play the surround mixes on the DV-79avi in my home theater system.

 

I forgot that StS box set had a DVD-A! I didn't think I owned any, thank you for the reminder.

 

If the Sony XA5400ES player is connected with HDMI to the Sony DA5400ES AVR the AVR converts the DSD to PCM , Sounds excellent. I assume this occurs with all AVRs that are connected by HDMI.