What to expect from really good or high end turntables?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by punkmusick, Mar 4, 2018.

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  1. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    And how does that work?
     
  2. swvahokie

    swvahokie Forum Resident

    The designs of some phono stages accentuate surface noise. Active ones are usually the culprit (but not always, there are no absolutes). The Sutherland stages have huge power supplies, even the cheaper ones, that gives them more headroom. Combine that with a passive RIAA stage and they dont amplify the ticks and pops as much. There are no bad Sutherland phono stages, but they are not unique in this ability. Pretty much any very good stage will do the same. Heck, if they don't do this, they aint a very good stage.

    More than one way to skin a cat, just not cheaply if you want it done right.
     
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  3. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Could you give an analogy to explain it?
     
  4. Robert C

    Robert C Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    ?
    As soon as the stylus hits the record you can hear hum from the Rega before the music starts.
     
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  5. Mister Pig

    Mister Pig I didn't Choose Farm Life It Chose Me

    Location:
    Olympia, WA
    Remember,the best amplifier is basically just a wire with a gain control.It should add as little as possible of it's own character to the sound that comes out of the speakers.

    Isn't this the end goal of all high performance audio components? To add or subtract nothing from the sound? The straight wire with gain description is great and all, but really we want that for all our audio components. Don't we want that with our turntables, CD players, and even our speakers. Our source components we want faithful to the record or CD. The speakers we want to be full range and linear. It's effectively all straight wire with gain, or faithful to the source material.

    With that being said, it does seem that amplification is the least expensive component that can be relatively linear for an affordable amount of money. as long as the impedance curves of the speaker aren't nasty, or the efficiency is low, then an amp doesn't have to be terribly expensive. Given the advancements of speaker manufacturing, from CNC cabinets, to computer modeling of drivers and crossovers, it is possible to build a speakers that are far more linear than ones in the past. While analog has become a niche product with increased demand for things like cartridges, and an inelastic supply chain, which means the price goes up as demand increases. So analog becomes comparitvely more expensive to do right.
     
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  6. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Yes but I assume thats just groove surface noise. The volume is recordibg before the stylus hits the record.
     
  7. doctor fuse

    doctor fuse Forum Resident

    If you have an old turntable and want to improve it, try adding plasticine to dampen it and add mass. You may well be amazed at the spectacular improvement to sound and performance.

    Try to find cheap plasticine at a dollar store. $5 should get you several pounds. Add it to the inside of the platter (it will probably LESSEN the strain on the motor, especially if you can add the plasticine to the out rim, which will improve the flywheel effect and give more inertia to rotation), the underside of the chassis, and anywhere safe inside the plinth and base.

    Adding it to the platter MAY accelerate wear of the spindle bearing slightly, due to the increased weight, and the probability that the platter may be less balanced than without.

    Improvements can be heard in: wow & flutter (usually inaudible after the mod), speed stability, speed correctness, dynamics, bass authority, reduction of unwanted resonances, and "slam". Improvements in performance include less susceptibility to footfall and other vibrations and less prone to feedback.

    You can also try adding rubber bands (or O-rings) to the tonearm.

    Only once, did this mod result in a negative effect (Technics SL-220 with their proprietary resin plinth - others have described the same). Best to add a little at a time, and listen to the result.

    I seriously think modding even my $30 CEC BD-2000 puts it almost at the level of my Thorens TD-160, with several of the common mods like a birch base.

    I understand this is nothing about high end tables, but perhaps some may find this interesting and attempt these mods. You will probably be pleasantly surprised!
     
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  8. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Rega sounds warmer, lusher, and "closer to you", so to speak. Technics sounds a bit brighter, thinner, farther away, but more detailed. Overall, to my ears, Rega sounds more pleasant.
     
  9. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Just make sure you don't use C-4 or Semtex...
     
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  10. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    In my case I don't believe in needledrops like that played through low fi computer speakers as the most of us have. Yes of course it gives us a hint of how it sounds but we can never really get all the details and nuances that is hidden within the sound.
     
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  11. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    Rega RP8 is a better turntable in most aspects except maybe for the speed accuracy, the current Technics SL-1200GR would really give the RP8 a run for the money on all parameters though. It may have the outer look as the older models but it's a different beast.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
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  12. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    I was speaking only of the video, not making any generalizations. My own reality is that I have no desire to own any Rega products, for no specific reason, admittedly, yet I am salivating for a new 1200. This video is obviously not representative and will not affect my final buying decision.
     
  13. Thomas_A

    Thomas_A Forum Resident

    Location:
    Uppsala, Sweden
    Usually it is difficult to get the differences when done blindly. I've nailed a few, but the due to very slight speed differences (a REGA against a DIY table). In the above example I wouldn't really be sure since it is open, except for the higher rumble in the REGA. I have not listened carefully, and would like to have shorter parts of the music to switch between.
     
  14. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    I this case I think it's like Leonthepro wrote- it's actually surface noise we hear. And to be honest the MC3-Turbo isn't exactly the most quiet of the Ortofon carts IMHO...
     
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  15. ANALOGUE OR DEATH

    ANALOGUE OR DEATH Forum Resident

    Location:
    HULL ENGLAND
    Of course you are right.This is why I sometimes cannot understand the emphasis that is placed on amplification when people are spending on their hi-fi.Especially when buying their first set up.Good quality amps can be bought at nice prices that do a fine job.However,the source and specifically the analogue source is the most difficult in the chain when it comes to getting it right build quality wise.
    I think a large part of the problem is that many people,perhaps new to trying to obtain a good hi-fi can see the turntable as a simple piece(which it is I suppose) that only has to spin at the correct speed.But acheiving this simple idea in reality is hard.
     
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  16. Thomas_A

    Thomas_A Forum Resident

    Location:
    Uppsala, Sweden
    Unclear since there is no such low fr noise from the Technics using the same cartridge.
     
  17. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    If it's so the bearing on this RP8 is defect, I recently auditioned a Rega RP8 and the bearing was dead quiet and the motor noise didn't interfere- no rumble at all. I believe the compatibility between the RP8 and the MC-3 is the problem in this case...
     
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  18. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    I totally agree with this, and 25 years ago, was ably demonstrated hourly by many good dealers.

    Take three levels of turntable performance, popular in the late 80s early 90s.

    1) Dual 505 / Rega Planar 2

    2) Manticore Mantra / Linn Axis

    3) Roksan Xerxes / Linn LP12

    Through a good £100 amplifier, such as a Creek 4040 and a good pair of sub £100 speakers, such as Royd A7 II, the musical improvements going from a level 1 to level 3 turntable, using the same budget, but excellent cartridge, an Audio Technica AT95E (same stylus used throughout) is significant and not one person didn't hear an improvement going from a level 1 turntable, through 2 up to 3. More significantly, they heard what they were losing going from a level 3 turntable back to level 1.

    Justifying the increased cost of a better turntable is a different matter and down to the individual. Likewise one person's, "a little bit better", is another's "wow, that blows it away!!" Small or big, you spent more money you got better sound, not different, everyone heard an improvement.

    To put people's mind at rest, we had a Rega 2 with a better (and yes, more expensive) cartridge to hand. Now using a £1000 amp and speakers, you could quickly show the quality of the improved cartridge over the AT95E. Having heard that, most people were shocked at how much better a level 2 turntable with AT95E was than a level 1 with better cartridge. Wow, the turntable is so much more important than the cartridge!

    Plugging a level 3 turntable into the £1000 amp and speakers, everyone heard the improvement.

    The Rega 2 with better cartridge was plugged in to the £1000 amp and speakers and compared with the level 3 through Creek and Royds. Not a single person preferred the Rega with better cartridge through £2000 amp and speakers, to the now cheaper system of a level 3 turntable with sub £20 cartridge through an amplifier and speakers costing under £200.

    Everyone heard how the turntable affected musical performance far more significantly than the pre amp, power amp and speakers.

    Perhaps more interestingly was the dems when Linn introduced the Linn Lingo power supply for the LP12.

    Played through a very well set up active system, a LP12 / Ekos / Troika with Valhalla power supply, Linn's then top of the range arm and cartridge, was regularly compared to a LP / Akito / K9 with Lingo - a significantly cheaper combination.

    Not one person that I did this demonstration for, ever preferred the significantly more expensive arm / cartridge combination with cheaper turntable power supply over the LP12 / Lingo / budget arm and cartridge.

    The sub £20 AT95E sounded stunning in a LP12 with Lingo, mounted in the Linn Ekos arm, even though a Creek 4040 and Royd A7 II and that system would give me hours of musical enjoyment. GIGO.

    Obviously a system using both analogue and digital sources, a more balanced system approach may well make sense.

    All I would add, that any of the above with modern favourite products can be quickly demonstrated, and it is very easy to spend a lot extra money for a worse sound, if your front end isn't good enough; your choice!

    It is a real shame that the lack of good brick and mortar dealers around the world means that many will not easily be able to hear a demonstration such as above. Given the equipment and an hour or two, everyone could hear and decide for themselves.

    In answering @4011021 what to expect from really good or high end turntables?

    Settling on really good rather than high end (performance or cost?), potentially the best sound from vinyl, for any given sum of money.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  19. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    I disagree. The Rega just refines the difference between the mid and low end giving a more "detailed" soundstage. The Technics inability to do so gives more focus to the high end making it sound brighter and flatter, but its still as bright as the Rega.
     
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  20. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    It just goes to show you how different each of our subjective impressions are and how far apart each of our definitions of "warm" and "bright" are.

    The sound from first table in that video to me is almost intolerably bright. I put a lot of the brightness down to the cart because the harsh, edgy treble is present on both tables in the recording, but with table 1, if it's the Rega, the brightness is enormously accentuated. There's also a seeming lack of coherence, the bass and treble have very different characters -- the bass seems slow and not all that well controlled, the treble seems fast and tighter. There's also a ton of mechanical noise -- rumble, what sounds like some kind of bouncing around of what sounds like poorly controlled arm/cart movement. That is a sound that to me ears is pretty typical of the Rega tables I've heard -- and I've only heard old 2s and 3s, not the contemporary run of Rega tables -- they're lively and bright and ring with poorly controlled mechanical energy (the plinths chatter with transferred energy, there's needle chatter, etc) and make things sound bigger than life.

    The second table sounds much, much warmer; with a much greater sense of coherence from the top to bottom. There's still plenty of mechanical noise, but less and not that bouncing sound of an uncontrolled cart sound. But that coherence comes at the expense of detail and dynamic swing, both of which are better with the first table. But there's still good HF transient attack and air. That also comports with my prior experience with vintage SL1200s -- a kind of bloated upper bass/lower midrange that makes for a smooth, warm, coherent sound but which masks detail and HF energy -- and a table that doesn't deliver the last word in dynamics. The cart's edgy treble is better controlled, or at least maybe it's better balanced.

    I suspect there are table/arm/cart combos out there that can do better then either -- less HF edge, the dynamics of the Rega but with much, much blacker backgrounds, and a much more natural sense of instrument size. But really, it's pretty tough to draw too much in the way of conclusions listening to a compressed YouTube stream with a laptop factory soundcard driving broadcast studio headphones.
     
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  21. Thomas_A

    Thomas_A Forum Resident

    Location:
    Uppsala, Sweden
    I've listened now and there are some clear differences, so much that I wonder if this is a flawed comparison.

    Is it the same cartridge item? There is some difference in channel balance, the Technics clearly leans to the right.

    If it is the same cartridge, is it the same capacitance in the tonearm cables? Other difference between channels?

    Also, unclear if these are volume-matched, the REGA appear louder which partly can be explained by the channel balance issue.
     
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  22. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer Thread Starter

    Location:
    Brazil
    I don't rely very much in videos in YouTube. We never know if they set the cartridge correctly, what VTF and VTA were used, what alignment, where is the turntable sitting etc. Let alone the YouTube compression.

    However, some are well done. Vinyl Room is a channel I like. The owner is a member of SHF that used to be very active and now appears from time to time. I'm sure he tries his best to make the videos trustworthy. Not saying they're perfect, I enjoy his videos. I first knew of him when someone suggested a video comparing Pioneer PLX-1000 and Rega Planar 3 when I was deciding between them:

     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  23. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    I thought it might be a little louder too but I think when asked he said its equal. He probably did not change the volyme for no reason.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  24. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    I dont know that we could could do much better than him. I mean you cant even change VTA on Regas.
     
  25. swvahokie

    swvahokie Forum Resident

    You need to hear a new higher level Rega. Something is seriously wrong in the setup of that RP8. I have heard multiple RP8's several times, all with different cartridges. The most expensive was a 4K Transfiguration that sounded incredible. From the P6 up, Regas are still lively, but the sound is now balanced with true deep bass and huge soundstages. A well set up RP8 will kill an original 12oo. The RP8 could be better at running dead on speed, the Technics will probably win there, but the next update of the RP8 will include the new NEO power supply that will pretty much fix that.

    Yes the new Technics 1200GR will probably get might close to an RP8, but so does the Rega P6. Thats why the RP8 is being replaced soon.
     
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