My main hobby (obsession, my wife calls it) is listening, finding and reading about music (mainly Jazz) and for the last 34 years it has been a consistent occupation in my life daily basis. The brick and mortar record stores are disappearing but Discogs helps a lot (although some country’s shipping costs are prohibitive) and my record collection is still growing by the week. From the start, CD was the thing for me, for the availability and ease of use, as most of my friend’s warped Vinyl records and their cheap out-of-tuning turntables fail to impress me. CD silent background and portability was magical, and the sound better than the dirty LP’s. So my CD collection started bit-by-bit and now it surpasses the 5000 specimens, and because I wisely choose to enjoy my teenage years hits on cassette (only buying CD that I felt it matter) I now can say that I listen to all my CDs. For example: I listen to all Nirvana on tape, and only 10 years ago I bought the “Nevermind” album (special edition). The tapes are long gone. Some 16 years ago I started to bought some used Vinyl, got a Rega turntable and thought that I could enjoy that format also. Then I have upgraded all analogue front end several times, got a record cleaning machine and the usual bits and stuff…but it was not meant to be. Fast forward to the beginning of the present year - when I have decided to sell all my analogue stuff and 500+ LP’s - and then I came to really question what do I want from this audiophile hobby thing, and what can I expect from system. From 2019, I have a dedicated listening room which was designed by me (after studying a lot about the matter and the right proportions) and built from the start, with special care invested in the electricity circuit (independent from the house main circuit) and acoustic treatment (with the technical help of Vicoustic). My goal was to extract the best out of my modest systems, and to have a place to allow experimentation, without interfering with the family’s day-to-day activities. A few weeks ago, I gave another chance to my KEF LS50 (bought some 6 years ago) since I could not make them to sound good in my previous room, neither on my new room. After some frustrating hours, an unorthodoxy take on in-room positioning make them really sing! Some minor adjustments latter the LS50’s combination with the Rogue Sphinx V1 integrated amp was too much to be thru, making the one of the most entertaining, fun and fatigue free sounds that I have ever had in home! The little Kef are now a revelation, to all I have read about them, totally transparent and disappearing from the room, leaving a huge soundstage with real depth and weight. The most uncanny thing is that every CD sounds it’s best, that that is very satisfying. A 70’s live recording shows all the technicals flaws but still good fun subsist. A modern (good) recording is presented with all strength, natural and life (studio) like. A 50’s jazz studio recording shows the correct choices done in the mix, and the feel of that period. That characteristic of not uniformize the presentation is really special, with the preservation of differences between recordings while maintaining a general engaging sound quality. Although very very modest (in today’s market) this is indeed a music first kind of system, and that makes me forget about all those audiophiliac thoughts and concerns, long from format wars (or preferences) and related things. That is what a good system can do for you: to forget about it and just enjoy music. Note: this conclusion led to another decision to sell some of several components in my collection, while I will maintain others that perform equally good and some others to keep trying and testing. This is a good hobby when we get things right, but can be a fountain of frustration if we can’t get things working… be this is also true to the majority of things in life
Totally agree with this. It took me about 5 years to get there. At some periods during this time I was constantly tweaking, changing components and gear, tuning the room, playing with speaker/sub positions, learning about the differences these made, learning also along the way what sound I really liked/wanted..lying awake some nights because I just couldn't get it 'right'...now I don't feel any need to think about the gear anymore. I put on some music and I can enjoy&relax. Been thinking about getting a bigger/better sub, it's there at my dealer to take home and try it out, but I've been postponing it for 6 months now because I'm good where I am I guess .
Mainly this meant abandon totally the much recommended equal triangle set up, that was resulting in a bright, detached and not engaging sound. I have always set the speakers without toe-in, and still they were bright and tiresome. Also I was more concerned about the distance between the speakers themselves and I came to the conclusion that more distance from the side walls is more important and beneficial to get a proper soundstage - now they are 91cm measured from the center of the drivers to the side wall, and 107cm from the front baffle to the front wall. My ears are 100cm distant from the back wall -while my mind is on the music. Of course that those measures are only mean something in the context of my 361 x 490 x 243cm (width x length x high) but it turn out very different from the position where I was getting good results with my other speakers. Now the speakers are 177cm apart (measured form the centre of the drivers) and 275cm away from the listening position (measured in a straight line from the centre point of the speakers front baffles). This is more like the positioning recommended by Totem, still without any toe-in. Yes, when you finally get it right it is very satisfying indeed… and you think: so why mess with that and start all over again?
@Naka9, I had a similar experience last night with my LS50 Metas. I pulled them out of the closet a few weeks ago and set them where the previous speakers sat, and I kept my seating position the same also. Well last night I was feeling vocals were lacking in clarity from what I expected. My solution was to move my chair forward 6 inches (16 cm), and the vocals snapped into focus with excellent clarity. Getting these distances right is very satisfying; well worth the effort.
Someone was selling a Yamaha as1200 and some KEF ls50’s locally for about $2000 recently. If a deal like that had been available when I first started piecing together my system I would have saved a lot of dough. Bet it sounds great, have heard nothing but good things about their ability to just become one with the room.
It takes time. Took me quite a while to tame a very live, square and small room with wall and other treatments. Took even longer with speaker positioning in micromillimeter increments. Finally, I have what I believe to be an excellent sounding listening room. Is it the best? No, it has its acoustic limitations (small and square); however, I'm happy with the results. Plainly, the OP took a similar road. There comes a point where you just have to stop with all the macro and micro adjustments, and simply enjoy the music.
I should've mentioned, after moving my seat up I measured the distance between the speaker and my ears. The move had me sitting at the 83% distance specified as ideal in the Jim Smith setup method.
83% as in distance from the listening position to the speakers compared to the distance between the speakers? My Kef LS60’s and dual subs have been a revelation to me over the last couple months. So I get it. Love the simplicity as well.
I think my goal these days is subconsciously trying to find whatever I think I had when I was about 19 years old. At that time it was a fairly stout Akai receiver, a Denon CD player, and a Pioneer cassette deck, all played thru some 4 way MTX home speakers with a 15" woofer and a piezo tweeter. At that time it was glorious, checked every box and was loud enough to get us in trouble with the neighbors. At this point I aim for soundstage, imaging, accuracy (insert all the audiophile terms), and output. I still have fun, but I do think I had more fun back then. Sometimes I feel like just getting some old, gigantic Cerwin Vegas or try to find those MTX speakers and see if I was delusional. But delusional or not, they definitely brought the party back in the day.
Glad that you’ve mentioned the Jim Smith’s setup, because the 83% rule doesn’t work at all in my room (with different speakers) and that’s what we’ve been talking about: keep on trying is the answer
It will sound great after proper set-up. That is my point. The system that I have described in the first post presented me opposite results, all related with the set-up. I am remembering a particular occasion (trying to listen to a new dac) with the Rogue Sphinx and LS50 (placed in a equilateral triangle) giving me a couple of hours of tremendous frustration: what a flat and unappealing sound it was! Now, they sound like are a match made in heaven (at that price point, of course), all due to speaker positioning.
I never had any expectations with my ss system I had for 25 years. Then I replaced the entire system this past year or so and my expectations have changed, unfortunately. Hearing what I hear now, learning from all the research I’ve done and advice I’ve received and knowing what a system is capable of has altered my expectations. Perhaps also knowing each systems strengths and weaknesses has also contributed to always seeking more. That’s become my concern. I have that obsessive behavior when it comes to hobbies, work and other aspects of life. I’ve learned to control it better as I’ve aged but the search for better is always on my mind. I should probably stop reading these forums all the time! Time to sit back, be thankful for what I’m blessed to have and enjoy the music.
I completely get that, as many great memories of listening to music with pure joy are related to my youth and subsequently to a lo-fi system, cheap headphones or even a mono tape deck! On that last one, I absolutely thrilled on my first time listening to Led Zeppelin’s Physical Grafitti… goose bumps and all! I played only that cassete for three straight days! I think about this a lot, and although I have to intention of trying to explain it, I know it is true: pure joy when listen to music can (still) came from a poor playback system. All it takes is our mood, the company, (wine or grass) and the music itself. Perhaps the audiophile thing (the dedicated room and complex gear) helps to get us in the mood more fast and easily without the other influences, I don’t know… but I can tell that it is part of my daily routine and offers me a more incisive and detailed view of records, recordings and musicians, as it can also bring to light all aspects of the music. For example: I believe that a 50-60’s blues record can be better understood when you can get all the things that make that recording session - like the recording space, the air, the wood floor, etc - even the flaws. We get another dimension of understanding. So, audiophile I am, and still get all the thrills listening to music specially because my taste evolved a lot… but music like the Artic Monkeys or Black Keys do sound great (better, maybe) on an MP3 headphones when outdoors, than on my better system.
So true regarding the fun with friends and music. I just heard my old system, I gave it to a friend and can’t believe I used to think it was great. I’m realizing as well that I connect great music to life events. It’s not about the quality of the music but the quality of friends you’re with. Music now has taken on a different role in my life. Equally good, but different.
In case you missed this thread: Jim Smith’s Magic Formula for Speaker Placement The third post in mentions the 83% rule.
Sounds about right, I think finding ones own personnel audio nirvana is what the hobby is about I went through a similar situation like the one you've gone through sold all my vinyl do in part to non-waf and space constraints, moved on to Cd's and built a sizable but doable collection which continues to grow because of a need to replace all the vinyl albums with there digital counter parts. I have as of late moved on to streaming something which I perished the thought of ever doing now after having ripped all my collection and continue to do so as I buy more cds, as far as new equipment I'm pretty satisfied with what I have will there ever be a need up grade their probably not ? I think the law of diminishing returns applies here at least for me, your right just enjoy the music with whatever format it be or the equipment used
Thank you. Unfortunately I still don’t quite understand it. So the speakers distance from each other should be 83% of the distance from the speakers to your ears? Or the other way around?
Never mind. I think I understand it now. And interestingly enough - already was doing this in my main system when it was downstairs just because of furniture placement. I actually remember moving my seating closer to make an equilateral triangle to test it out and while it was more accurate sounding, it lost a ton of musicality.
Just an update if anyone is interested… I have been rocking the 83% speakers distance rule for a few days now. I’m sure glad I tried it. It was a noticeable improvement over an already fantastic sound. Whoa. I was using the “traditional” equilateral triangle setup prior so I was nervous it would shrink my soundstage width - which was already the best I’ve ever heard in my own setup. Happy to report the using the 83% approach kept the great soundstage width but also added more depth and focus to the center stage. And it’s just a bit more musical overall. Funny enough I set everything up at exactly 83% and it sounded really good, but then I played around and ended up moving my listening position just a smidge closer, so about 84% and everything clicked. Thanks so much for the info and recommendation on that method. Oh and I encourage everyone that is even slightly interested to try and demo a pair of these LS60’s just for fun. They are WTF good.
GR8 memories! We've all been there. It was more fun coz we were YOUNG! Imaging, precision, tonal accuracy and room treatments in the wind!
