What tweaks can I make to my system for a better soundstage?

I think the smallest, least expensive tweaks are best tried first. So:

1) Try different speaker placement. It's shocking how much this effects sound.

2) Similarly, how the system sits in the room and the overall shape of that room also has great effects. Moving furniture, etc can often have an effect.

3) Fighting unwanted vibrations with all components is important. DIY vibrations pads or purchase some always help. I mention DIY to limit the cost.

4) Small changes with your TT help, such as a better mat, or upgraded stylus. Check to see if the tables is balanced. Also, the placement of ur table in relationship to ur speakers can cause feedback and distortion.


I think it's easy to get caught up in spending money to hear Sonic improvements. And, that avenue does not always produce the desired results. My advice is to experiment with your system before making any major purchases. At a minimum this will help you ID where you might make improvement.

Good luck.

 

Can't help you out with your turntable....But, for digital sources, one thing your setup appears to be missing is the kind of DAC that will help with your goal. Some speaker designs image way better than others. But, I wouldn't suggest you change your speakers. As others have suggested, the cheapest solution is to work with positioning of your current speakers (it is free). If you don't have the freedom to pull your speakers away from the front wall and position for optimal imaging, just don't worry about imaging man.

Here's an extremely well made tube DAC.
DOGE 7 MK2 Tube DAC – Limited Edition FULLY BALANCED – DOGE AUDIO

Or a cheaper R2R DAC..
https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-ares-r2r-dac

either of which should help with your goal...These type of DACs can work the "soundstage magic", layering, etc a lot better than your turntable.

 

Yeah I’m one of those guys who uses a ‘level on a level’ (or whatever that saying is) to make sure my stand and equipment lay as horizontal as possible, and I spend a good amount of time making sure my cartridges are aligned correctly. I’m of the opinion that if either of these things are ‘off’ soundstage is reduced.

 

What is that your not getting from your current setup that you feel the need to tweak it ?

 

Ahhhh … not to be contrary but … what do other phono enthusiasts think about this statement?!

I do really need to dust off my Thorens TD145 and Denon DL160 HOMC and compare with my new digital rig ($3500 or so altogether).

Last time I did this several years ago, I had and still have the mighty Cambridge 840C CD player. Cued up a record and CD, synced things as well as possible including SPL … they sounded IDENTICAL in every way I care about. Only a little surface noise let me know a record was playing.

I’m hoping $3500 later what HIRES_FAN said above is true …

I’m also itching at times to get the new Technics SL-1500C, a 2m Bronze (or maybe another HOMC or LOMC), and some new record cleaning gear (yep, another $3500 total). But we’ll see …

 

Based on my read of your equipment, it is good enough to deliver a convincing image. Much has to do with location of the speakers and the acoustics of the room. I would not start buying gear until you have explored set up/location as other posters have undoubtedly recommended. Getting a system "dialed in" is not an immediate process. I learned enough about my system from 2006- 2016 to be able to set it up pretty well when I moved in 2017. I've made a few improvements but set up is the key.
Soundstage is one attribute that is used to describe optimal performance of a reproduction system. There are many attributes. You can get a good soundstage, along with other attributes, including range, dynamics, tonality and timing (not PRAt, so much as capturing and reproducing a sonic "envelope" that includes the ambience of the original recording, if it is there on the source material).
I wouldn't spend money on more equipment until I maximized the performance of the equipment you have in the room. Start with Jim Smith's book.

 

Good for you that you solved your problem. Speaker positioning is always the first thing to experiment with.

 

Bang for Buck must be room treatment, it worked for me. No need to spend a fortune, check out YouTube for inspiration.

 

Bill Hart mentioned Jim Smith’s book. That’s an excellent suggestion. Last I spoke with Jim he will also come personally to your home - for a price of course. IMO, it’s a good investment.

 

I was a vinyl enthusiast long before I became a hires digital enthusiast. At some point, I had a SME and crap more spent in cartridges and phono pres, but, never had the success I currently have on the digital endwith such nuances of listening. Others may have had more success than me and more power to the analog tweakers...Watch out for the wallet damage though

 

I googled Cardas Method because I also have been struggling with getting a larger soundstage. I read the article carefully and followed the instructions (in my case the rectangular room version), not quite fully but very close. The difference is amazing! a huge soundstage that on some recordings extends past the speakers. The depth and height of the soundstage was also dramatically increased. I'll follow up with more details here on this thread as soon as I can. Thanks so very much for suggesting this as a reference.

Here is the link Cardas Room Setup Guide

 

Peachtree Audio decco65 D/A integrated amplifier Page 2 and Peachtree Audio Design 5 Stand-Mount/Desktop Speaker (Playback 49) - The Absolute Sound
Seems like your basic system is very good, and I’m really glad you’re getting the performance they are capable of. Using Cardas suggestions for near field placement (an equilateral triangle well into the room) also works very well for me.

If possible (since pulling speakers out into the room reduces the close-wall bass augmentation) maybe add a sub. I use and highly recommend the SVS SB-1000 Pro model, at $600 now it’s a bit pricey but is excellent. Having the app and Parametric EQ to notch out the response a bit at room mode frequencies is a huge plus.

IMHO if you upgrade other parts, the SVS will hold its own well into the upper echelons of other equipment.

The sub gives you low bass which helps increase the sense of space in recordings (you hear more of the room). Plus it’s just fun.

 

My experiences have been the polar opposite...

 

Have a sub, an Audioengine S8 connected to my Decco65, recognizing that it certainly is not a high-end solution. It has adjustable crossover but only goes down to 50Hz. As you mentioned it certainly does help with overall sound spaciousness although I'm still attempting to find a sweet spot for it. I've taken some setup info from REL subs and it seems the best place for it thus far is in the front right corner, aimed horizontally. However as with the mains, set up of the sub is tricking and time consuming. Maybe more so. I'll look into the SVS sub, thanks for the suggestion.

 

The response is supposedly good to 27Hz, the crossover (low pass filter) is adjustable down to 50Hz. I’d set it to say 60Hz which should help and blend in with your speakers. So then the sub would be playing from 27-60Hz. I’d leave the speakers running full range, hooked up directly to the amp.

One step in sub setup (read up on that) is to turn the sub volume up somewhat, play a spot tone at the crossover frequency (60Hz) then set the sub phase switch to 0 or 180, whichever sounds louder at the listening position.

Play some bass-heavy music and adjust the sub volume until you can’t hear it as a source of sound (i.e., can’t tell where the low bass is coming from). Or turn it up until you can, then back off a bit. You’ll still hear the sub, it just won’t distract your attention from the main soundstage.

 

Did as you suggested and it made a huge difference. I did move the sub from in between my main speakers to the front left corner (As REL sometimes recommends) and the bass comes in nice and clear w/o any hint of directionality. And you are correct...the addition of the subwoofer helps the overall soundstage depth and left to right width. Remarkable.

 

Speaker placement made all the difference in the world for me. I followed directions for the Cardas Method (see link above in a previous post of mine) for the rectangular room.

I measured my room width as per Cardas Method instructions. My room is 12.75' / 153" wide. At 153" wide:
Right speaker's woofer center is 42.23" from right wall.
Left speaker's woofer i center is 42/23" from left wall.
From left speaker's woofer to right speaker's woofer is 68.4".
Left speaker's woofer center was supposed to be 68.4" from front wall however mine is 56.4" because I did not want the speaker so far out into the room.
Right speaker's woofer center was supposed to be 68.4" from front wall however mine is 56.4 because I did not want the speaker so far out into the room.


After adjusting my main left and right as outlined above I played the following vinyl and CD albums as reference material:

Chiaroscuro by Mike Marshall and Darol Anger
Windham Hill Records WH-1043 vinyl

Caverna Magica by Andreas Vollenweider
CBS Records FM37827 vinyl & CD MK37827

Vapor Drawings by Mark Isham
Windham Hill WH-1027 vinyl & CD WD-1027

Opera Sauvage by Vangelis
Polydor Records SPELP vinyl

Views From A Red Train by Tangerine Dream
Cleopatra Records CLP9277 CD

Pieces by Manassas
Eyewall/Rhino R2 521089 CD

I first played the vinyl Chiaroscuro and Vapor Drawings and the difference in the width and depth of the sound stage was amazing. As in 'eyes-widened-and-I-smiled' amazing. The speakers literally disappeared. The sound was smooth and beautiful. I found the same with the vinyl versions of Caverna Magica and the beginning of song #1/side one was especially detailed with the effects and voice coming from the left and right walls, seeming right beside me. The CD versions of these vinyl albums were almost the same however they width was slightly narrower.

On Views From A Red Train (Tangerine Dream/CD) I experienced similar yet slightly narrower width however the depth was increased. I could hear the various layers of the electronic instruments in more of a space. The front wall became my speaker.

Pieces by Manassas is a remastered Rhino recording. Stephen Still's vocals were spot on center with bass and other various instruments on the far right and left of the room. When singing together in harmony I could pick out the various voices much easier. This new speaker placement brought this recording to life as if it was another, better remixed version.

All-in-all I would highly recommend trying the Cardas Method in your music room if you possibly can. It made much more of a difference in my listening experience than any change in audio components I have recently tried.

 

THIS!

 

Best thing to do to improve soundstage is to have a great room. Then, the next best thing (besides speaker placement and room treatment) is to remove everything from the space between the two speakers, especially in the middle of that space. Then remove everything that is directly between the listening seat and the speakers except the floor rug.

 

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I would absolutely try any of the Aperion Audion Super Tweeters, here are some examples. Note, they offer several different models, all are great!

 

Fantastic! So glad you got great results. It is truly amazing what two speakers and a sub can do. As other folks have said, if you can possibly get into room treatment it takes things to a whole other level. It can get expensive though. I imagine DIY can approach or equal “store bought” if you are careful and build things properly. I’m lazy, and my homemade things like this usually turn out being ugly as hell, so I bought GIK acoustics panels and bass traps. I think the overall system with shipping is probably the most expensive “single” component in my system right now but I think it was well worth it.

Adding room treatment panels and bass traps really made things much more articulate is the best way I can describe it. I think it also made the sound staging depth a bit more palpable and real sounding. I feel like I’m hearing a lot more of what’s on the recordings, with all the improvements I’ve done in my system over the last year plus the room treatments, every time I play just about anything I feel like I’m hearing it for the first time. It’s a little disconcerting at times actually.

I bet you’re feeling the same way listening to familiar recordings and hearing the spread of instruments and voices, and hopefully you have a sense of depth placement as well, a 3D soundscape.

 

That’s a good way to describe what I’m hearing with my system and room in its present state. Some of the things I have are remixed and remastered but even old stuff sounds to me like it’s brand new.

Super cool !

 

I own a Pioneer dynamic expander. It's not a 3band like the DBX but does wonders to the sound. If you had heard one, you may be of a different persuasion.

 

since I’m admonishing others who tell people they can’t possibly hear something, I cannot do that to you! I’m glad you have one and enjoy it.

Can you describe the effect? Seems like there are controls, so presumably from slight to extreme, but what does it do? From the name, seems like it expands the dynamic range … soft to loud becomes soft(er) to loud(er). I’m having a hard time imagining what that sounds like and if it would be pleasant. I assume so! Since there is/was a market for the device.

It would be interesting to hear one, seems like they are not very common. I see some (sorry, the DBX unit, not Pioneer) on eBay ranging from $500 or something and up and up. Actually there is a pioneer unit on Amazon that they appear to be asking more than $1200 for.

 

See this thread for inspiration: New amp! Woot woot!

Tube amps can be neat, but you have to go deep into the rabbit hole to find the good gear where tubes really do something special and add a really special something extra to the soundstage and do a special sense of tube sonic holography.