What tweaks can I make to my system for a better soundstage?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Prospero, Feb 8, 2022.

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  1. mkane

    mkane Strictly Analog

    Location:
    Auburn CA
  2. Simoon

    Simoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I'm sure its been said quite a bit on this thread so far, but good room treatment.

    Can be done fairly cheaply, with a bit of DIY.

    But in all honesty, room treatment is not a tweak, its a major part of a system.
     
    timind, drew phillips and The FRiNgE like this.
  3. tIANcI

    tIANcI Wondering when the hifi madness will end

    Location:
    Malaysia
    I was at a local dealer’s place here. Speakers were the Graham Audio LS6 and LS8/1. Amplifier is just a Moonriver integrated. Source is the humble Node streaming from Spotify. Soundstage was so darn good. Vocals were just floating in mid air and it was deep.

    The shoplot is long. Not much treatment at all. Just some curtains on the walls. Speakers are at least 12’ from front wall and 10’ apart.

    The room plays a huge role.
     
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  4. You have lots and lots of good infor so far, so I am basically another chiming in with some backing vocals to the already good song.

    Play with speaker placement and listening position.
    These are likely to produce the most noticeable results concerning soundstage.
    The best part of these tweaks is they cost no money, just time and effort.

    Pay attention to better mastering of the source materials.
    This can produce a rather large change in the soundstage with some materings.
    If you can, borrow some different versions of the same material just to hear this differences.....You may already have things set up for good soundstage but you have not given the system the right mastering materials to realize best results.

    Room treatments can improve the limitations of the room and thus produce better soundstage.
    There are many cheap ways to test for these things beofre having to dive into specific room treatments.
    A mattress propped up here, a few shipping blankets hung over there, some pillows strategically set her and there.....Use things you alread have if you can to prove the results.
    Then go after more permanent room treatment items if you are so moved.
     
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  5. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Just chiming in! The room is just as essential to your sound as the system itself.

    1) control early reflection off the side walls and floor
    2) locate your speakers as far from side walls as possible, free standing promotes sharper imaging.
    3) distance between the speakers should form a near equilateral tringle to your listening chair. (too far away from the speakers collapses the image.)
    4) too far from the speakers (also) causes interaural crosstalk, or each speaker is heard more equally by both ears, which decreases separation and timing cues
    5) likewise, again, too far from the speakers causes a nasal character to your sound... don't blame the speakers. You are too far away and the triangle not near equilateral.
    6) The hand clap test: A great room will produce a short-even decay, without pinging off the walls nor discrete echo. If not as described, treat the room for a short, even decay
    7) There is no rule that says window dressing can not cover an entire wall. Hang drapery as needed to control a live room.
    8) The speaker dispersion pattern is related to imaging. (** seldom discussed**) Too much dispersion can compromise your soundstage.

    More food for thought:
    One of the keys to great stereo sound, and imaging, is understanding first the benefit of a monaural system. They are different, but some of the keys to great monaural sound has carried over to stereo, not necessarily a good thing. Here is why!

    A monaural speaker with a wide dispersion pattern is a very good thing. The listener can move about the room, and enjoy music with just about the same response as directly in front of the speaker. There is no time delay (between two speakers) nor any phase interference. All is well in the land of oz, or should be. A monaural speaker does image, mostly in the air space surrounding the speaker. There is in fact, physical energy in the air surrounding the speaker, and the ear picks this up. Likewise, a monaural speaker produces depth in sound, via timing, and relative levels of the instruments and voice. As a general rule, louder sounds, sound closer, less loud sounds with more reverberation, more receded.

    For stereo, we can adopt some of the rules that make a great monaural sound, but also must (essentially a must) break some of the rules. One of the rules that does not work well in stereo, is wide dispersion. Over the tenure of high fidelity, one of the challenges of a speaker system is to disperse the higher frequencies. The tweeter physical size, even at one inch, is larger than the spectrum of sound "waves" it propagates into the room. So, tweeters are efficient. The tweeter tends to "beam" or focus on a narrower dispersion pattern, so therefore the common dome tweeter mitigates this beaming effect.

    simply stated:
    A larger diaphragm tends to beam a narrower dispersion pattern (more efficient)
    A smaller driver diaphragm tends to spread the pattern (less efficient)

    Now consider the deleterious affect that side wall reflections have on the sound. These early reflections produce delayed sound that mixes with real time. The delay smears the timing cues, and also causes flanging effect. This produces an annoying artifact to the sound, colors the sound, as well as reducing the imaging.

    One monaural speaker isn't as fussy with room placement, as a pair stereo pair of speakers are!
    Stereo seeks to produce a sonic hologram. Sounds easy, but it isn't. A lot of stuff works against it.

    It's not only the side walls and the room that affect the total sound in your room, it's also the off-axis energy a speaker produces.
    Two speakers produce your sound space, not the dispersion of the speakers. Just the same, the intent is to create a three dimensional hologram. Again, dispersion does not contribute anything at all to this objective.
    Wide dispersion also adds to interaural crosstalk, that is, we want each speaker to direct to each ear.
    A speaker with a more controlled dispersion pattern actually works with the room, and reflections, and adds greatly to producing a convincing, and sometimes startling realism to your system. Horn type speakers are best at this, as well as full range electrostatics and planar speakers, ribbon tweeters... sometimes cone tweeters, or fried egg tweeters, or some help by a wave guide.

    I am a speaker builder-hobbyist, musician :pleased: and audiophile (concerning the latter, send me a sympathy card?) Hey! I can't help it. :crazy: I'm hooked!
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
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  6. Ted Torres Jr

    Ted Torres Jr Synergistic Maximus

    Location:
    SE LA
    PP,

    What is your room dimensions?
    What is your decor furnishings?
    How is your setup arranged?
    Any pics of your listening space?

    Ted
     
  7. doctor fuse

    doctor fuse Forum Resident

    Don't forget to try speakers toed out to increase the soundstage past the speakers themselves.
     
  8. Ted Torres Jr

    Ted Torres Jr Synergistic Maximus

    Location:
    SE LA
    Check...worked very well for me! :righton:

    Ted
     
  9. :edthumbs::righton::thumbsup::shtiphat:
     
    Chris Schoen likes this.
  10. Bingo Bongo

    Bingo Bongo Music gives me Eargasms

    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Please don't take this as an insult, but honestly, for such an nice system, I doubt there is never pleasing you. It's the same old story of the Rabbit Hole.

    And welcome to the forum. :cheers:

     
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
  11. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital

    I think one of the best things you can do is always have your loudspeakers firing the longer lenght of any room. I lived in an apartment and my main room was about 17' wide x 23' long. Because of furniture placement I opted to place my speakers further apart, but projecting into the lesser width of the room. Everything looked better, BUT, it certainly did not sound better. I had what many people have, a big sliding glass door on that short wall, which was not just real conducive to the best loudspeaker placement possible in that room. If the object is best sound reproduction, generally speaking, place your loudspeakers on the shorter wall, in my case the 17' wall, and have them firing out into the longer 23' direction, the sound is just much more robust.

    This is one of the best changes you can make with guaranteed results, if you do indeed have a room that is longer than it is wide.

    I would mention, at one time I had a DBX 3 BX range expander, which has been suggested to you in a previous post. Yes the 3BX will expand dynamics, but it has a worrisome tendency to cause your music to have a "breathing" sound, there was an unnatural expansion that you could feel and hear, which is why the DBX 3BX was discontinued. You can reduce the breathing problem by reducing the gain, but once you start hearing that breathing problem, on many passages that downfall becomes very audible. The loudspeaker room placement I am suggesting will immediately give you very good results. Changing the position to the shorter wall will also give you the opportunity to bring your loudspeakers a bit further out from the walls. There will be an immediate clarity and expanded sound from your system, I hope you give it a try. :righton:
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
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  12. Nails

    Nails Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    Here's a thought... I've always incorporated 2 subs into my hifi system, but what about a third behind the listening position?

    Just had the idea of scooping up a used tzero mk3 to tie into my system behind my listening position. I feel like this would really help the immersion into a soundstage.
     
  13. merlperl

    merlperl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Omaha, NE
    I found this to be the case with my SF speakers
     
  14. I am 69 and years ago was buying the latest and greatest products the reviewer's loved, along with the so called "Giant Killers" folks loved in our Forums. When I made the transition away from other people's opinions, listened and also saved my money, until it hurt. I've purchased all my newest gear from companies that have longevity in the business and good warranty representation.
     
  15. Hanks3

    Hanks3 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, Tx
    "Audiophile" receptacle.
     
  16. HIRES_FAN

    HIRES_FAN Forum Resident

    Before this turns into a vinyl vs digital jingdingbingding...the easiest thing the guy can do to determine the extent of his speaker's soundstaging capabilities is to go to town with positioning (even if wife won't permit it as a permanent solution). So, it would just be a temporary trial.

    For instance, he could keep moving speakers wider apart...enough to prevent hole in the middle and try more extreme toe-in....This tends to invoke that 3D sht even with some challenged speakers. You would see the Wilson dudes try this trick to try and make their overpriced bumbums "disappear" n all...
     
  17. HIRES_FAN

    HIRES_FAN Forum Resident

    Or you could try to move your existing dual subs relatively nearfield behind you...I've noticed over the years that the hometheater guys have some distinct advantages over the 2 channel dudes hanging on to their fossilized/"purist"/"feature poor" gear. The sad part is that these hometheater dudes end up using their amazing "feature rich" gear to watch ballgames/movies and don't have taste for the kind of music that does justice to their setups. Meanwhile, the 2 channel dude sits on his high horse claiming his gear is mightier than the latter after trialing some barrel bottom receiver...

    The higher end multichannel preamp processors are the optimal tool for multi-sub integration (make your life easier). You could end up chasing your tail otherwise in multi-sub setups.
     
  18. Nails

    Nails Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    I’m currently using bookshelves with the subs filling the sub ~60hz on down. Definitely gives off the huge "tower" like effect. I feel the added third sub might be a fun and rather inexpensive tweak to try out. It’ll almost open up a larger plane, at least in my head.

    I’m not opposed to trying unconventional things to achieve incredible sound. I’ve tried moving my current two subs around, but found the area I’ve got them both are perfect. The third behind me would just add to that.

    Think I’ll give it a try. The tZero is such a small piece that could add exactly what I’m looking for in this medium sized office room
     
    bever70 likes this.
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