What would you decide between 300K$ and 30K$ speakers?

Speaking with my own limited experience with horns, I have found there is some music with which they just don't perform well - at least not to my ears. With smaller arrangement music on acoustic instruments however, they can reproduce with startling realism.

I also feel low frequency performance is markedly improved in modern speakers over that of the high sensitivity designs of the past- again, in my limited experience with horns which I've found tend to roll off at higher frequency and is generally less controlled.

Maybe there are some older designs with great low end response - I cannot say because I haven't heard the best of them, but if there there are, it probably comes at a price- both in physical space and money, neither of which I have in sufficient quantity at my disposal.

If I had to live with one design or the other permanently, I would go with modern cones and domes without hesitation which I feel is generally more adept with a wider array of material with the least amount of tradeoff.

As always, YMMV.

 

I don't think they do large acoustic orchestra's very well. But, then mos speaker's don't either.

IMO, their weakest instrument is a string section of violin's.

Most of everything else, they can get right.

Legacy design speaker's were never intended to reproduce modern electric bass and electronic sub-base frequencies.

I just add a commercial passive sub-woofer.

You are correct, most do roll of in the high frequencies, my A7's have super-tweeter's on them for this specific reason.

At the end of the day, the 2-way system is not a full range 4-way system and perform's superbly well.

They do take up a lot of space.

In years past, amplifier's did not have the power that amplifier's do today, so these speaker's were designed with the principles of physics in mind. They have large open cabinets that produce effortless sound.

Do keep in mind, that your experience with horns is limited, as you say. This is not unusual as that applies to 99% of the general public as well.

Unfortunately, most have not, nor will they ever are likely to hear quality horn's which are set up and demonstrated properly.

All people have heard, are speaker's that are not.

I have both horn loaded speakers and speaker's that are direct radiator design's, both have things that they are good at, that the other is not.

But, I will say, don't put limitations on what great horns can do musically.

They will surprise you!

 

I have not heard the large variety of speakers that many members of the forum have, but I do own a very good pair of speakers that most forum members are not familiar with, a older pair of Chapman Audio T9's. A local company near Seattle still making high-quality, no frills speakers. Prior to that I listened to Revel M20's. I recently bought my first pair of horn based speakers, vintage Altec A7-500-w to match a low wattage tube amp. Like every speaker they have weaknesses, but their strengths are impressive. Hearing new details in old favorite recordings and the separation of instruments and vocals are a few of the attributes that I enjoy from horns.
I would certainly like the opportunity to listen to either pair of speakers the op mentioned.

 

Well, 300k is in the upper range of high end speakers, but there are multiple manufacturers in that upper range, each with their own design. The most problematic thing is what you tend to get with forums are members who try to pass opinion as fact. Often these members state the same nonsense in every thread that they can. In the end, it’s your money. The only advise that I can offer folks is that cars, guitars, stereo equipment, etc...are terrible investments. Especially if you plan on using them.

 

Here's a suggestion: $30K - retirement account; $295K - a house or a condo, with no mortgage; the remaining $5K - a pair of Omega Super Alnico HO XRS plus a good pair of cables:

Super Alnico High Output XRS

 

All else being equal it's better for the world if the rich spend rather than hoard their money. Get the top ones.

If I had to spend 300k re music I'd be asking if Tom Waits and Marc Ribot could head over for a private gig!

 

I seem to be always parroting Salectric, but, I agree that a visit to the DC area and a stop at Deja Vu should be a priority. They can do custom designs around the $30k range that will satisfy anyone who loves the WE sound. As I said earlier, there is a surprising variety of ways to get to that kind of sound with quite a bit of subtle variations in the sound that are worth exploring.

I have a "sort of" WE system that is composed of a modern, but old school drivers (twin 12" alnico magnet woofers with pleated fabric surrounds), a modern bullet-type tweeter and a 1939 WE 713-b midrange driver and WE 12025 sectoral horn. I am going to upgrade the crossover to one built around WE paper-in-oil caps. Deja Vu is very much involved in the build of this system.

If you go the Line Magnetic route, there is always the possibility of later upgrading the system by replacing the field coil compression driver with a real WE driver or a superior G.I.P. clone driver. If you then want to take it even further, the bullet tweeter could be replaced with a field coil WE 597 (or clone) driver.

While I am a fan of the WE sound, I have heard other kinds of sound that I also find appealing that are quite different from modern high-end sound. In the past two years, at a local audio show, I have been very pleasantly surprised by the sound of single driver full-range systems built by a company named Charney. I usually don't like full-range systems because they tend to have a pronounced upper midrange peak and sound too thin in the bass, but the Charney's are quite different. They are also extremely efficient, so they work with the kind of amplification that I like. They are located in New Jersey, so you would have to travel some to hear them.

 

Nail has been officially hit on the head, IMO. Since most of my listening is exactly that, the horn speakers I do have get limited use.

For the record, the horns that I've had direct experience with are Heathkit AS-21 (essentially Altec Malibu in kit form), EV Patrician, E-V Georgian and the a pair of Altec 14s which I presently own.

I would disagree slightly on the large scale orchestra part however, which I found to be highly variable from one recording to the next. It all depends on the talents of the recording engineers ie, microphone placement, mastering techniques etc.

 

I wonder how much the cost of living as gone up in 15 years ? Your $5000 today might not be much more than $3000 15 years ago.

 

Acc to the CPI calculator, $3,000 in 2003 is roughly $4,100 today so the "investment" did slightly better than the inflation rate.

Not so good compared with the S & P 500, however which has almost tripled in the same time frame -speaking from a purely analytical standpoint.

 

How much are the tubes worth if put into service 5, 10, or 15 years ago?

 

We're dealing purely in hypothetical investment analysis, with the assumption the asset hasn't changed. Otherwise, I would think the present value of the tubes would depend on their test measurements.

 

As for myself, I have never been able to recreate an acoustical orchestra sound sound, to my satisfaction, where it is "real".

Every other type of music, I have.

Even though I am an Altec fanboy, I can't go with their crossover's. I didn't even like them when I was sixteen.



But anyone who is expecting to buy something like a commercial cabinet, like the A7's and use them in their stock form within a home stereo, is likely to be disappointed.

Mine involved custom crossover's, conversion to a four-way system and quality low power tube amplification, to achieve what they are capable of sounding like today.

Even the Altec's that take commercial driver's and adapt them for home use are lacking in their potential.

I do find, that they do reproduce any orchestra music that is reproduced at a public event, like a movie theater of a Broadway play.

 

I have found some recordings that come very close, but they are in the distinct minority. One stellar example that comes to mind was made in 1961 - Grieg Piano Concerto No 1 with Artur Rubinstein at the keyboard on the RCA label, recorded live in Carnegie Hall.

It was sometime later that I discovered Rubinstein himself had said of this recording, "In a rare coincidence of sound, balance and performance of conductor, orchestra and soloist, this is the most perfect recording I ever made."

The lingering question it begs is why can't classical recordings today be made like this one was in 1961?

 

Yesterday I visited Silbatone company located at Seoul Korea and saw more than 50 pairs of vintage Western Electric big horn speakers that I had hoped to get one.

I asked my friend who is a owner of Silbatone whether I can get long term loan of one of them for 10 years at my home.

He politely replied back that he is building museum for vintage audio and so he can not spare one for me.

It will be completed in 2 years at the suburb of Seoul, Korea.

If you are interested in vintage audio, it shall be the place to visit.


I had a good time at my friend's home and took some photos but I can disclose only part of them for his privacy.

I will fly back to US today and post some photos and details of discussion with him about vintage audio after being at my home.

 

I would NEVER buy audio equipment as an investment. Too much can go wrong when it comes to the value of a thing.

You can either afford it, or you can't.

 

That sounds like a hell of a visit. You are a lucky guy. I have heard only what they have brought to Munich and that was impressive.

 

That great vintage sound does not necessarily require a horn/compression driver. I heard a terrific system that utilized a 13" wide range Jensen M-10 field-coil driver in an open baffle cabinet with a tweeter on top (the 13" driver running full range, with a high pass filter on the tweeter). That same Jensen driver with a WE 597 field coil tweeter would be a world class system (and quite expensive).

WE had similar field coil wide range drivers, and G.I.P. offers 12", 15" and 18" wide range field coil drivers based on WE designs that could also be used in a great two-way system.

As to whether these systems are deficient when playing large scale orchestral works, I don't think they are any more deficient than other designs--all types of systems seem to be somewhat lacking; whether it is the speakers or the recording process or some other components, it is hard to do orchestral and large choral works. But, what the really BIG horn systems can do with these works that most other systems cannot do as well is to simulate the large scale of the work--you can actually sense that the music is not being squeezed out of a small object must is coming from a large source; the sound seems to fill the room with ease. You also get this sense of scale and enveloping sound at modest volume levels and you don't really have to crank the volume to feel the majesty of the sound (I think low volume reproduction is the primary strength of horn and other high-efficiency systems).

 

"Bughatti" is "Bugatti." The company really never recovered after WWII and the desirable cars are earlier. The newer ones aren't real, but are very powerful supercars, heavy, not lithe. Ferrari, at least, is still made in Modena, though i gather one can no longer buy a stick, it's all paddle shifters. Bentley went bankrupt during the depression and was purchased by Rolls. The original great Bentleys are the pre-Rolls cars, though a few, during the early Derby years, and some in the '50s era- like the Continental fastback--are desirable.
Just like audio, there's more depth to this than just a well-known brand. I've owned quite a few of these cars and seriously shopped others-- there's a lot to know. (And prices right now, at least in the vintage market, are pretty crazy, but in my experience, there's a cycle of bubbles and downturns). I can address some of the audio related stuff in another post.

 

I'm going to stay away from the 'wealth' arguments and talk about audio. The WE (and a few other vintage pieces) are collector's items, desirable not only for their sound, but for their value as artifacts. The prices of WE are now astronomical, though if you had your heart set on owning a piece of history, no re-creation is going to substitute for that.
Since you apparently post on WBF, you might reach out to David Karmeli who, as you probably know, has that pair of Siemens Bionors-- the Klangfilm counterpart to WE.
I have heard anecdotal reports––not my first hand listening experience –– that the GIP is far closer than the Line Magnetics copies.
But there are many other alternatives, both current production and vintage. You might ask @hvbias about his horn journey- I know he has done his research. I've heard a few of the more modern horn hybrids and had a mixed reaction, although listening conditions in shows are never ideal.
Jeffrey Jackson, as you may know, has long been salvaging and recreating vintage gear with the help of others. He's a good resource here in the States (I think he's now in NY State). Oswald Mill has worked with several designers from that vintage horn/SET cult and offers a finished product at a price. And there's the VU guy, who @Salectric and some others have first hand experience with.
I use horns and SET (Avantgarde and Lamm) and really enjoy what they can deliver- unforced midrange and wide open dynamics. The biggest failing with these and other hybrids in my estimation is the lack of cohesion with the bass.
I did hear the JBL K2 (probably the previous model to the current production item if it is still in production), with a small SET and my turntable and they were fabulous. According to Karmeli, they aren't efficient enough to be driven by the Lamm 2 series amps; I think he bi-amps his, so what you aren't spending on speaker you are spending on amps.
I think the question whether you spend a lot of money on audio gear is a personal question that no one else can answer. We can, to the degree of our knowledge and exposure-- comment on the merits of the equipment itself.

 

Thank you for tagging me Bill, I hope you've been well. Did you ever make it to UT to hear David's Klangfilms? I have been occasionally popping into WBF to see the developments of his turntable, a truly stunning machine. I really love David's philosophy on things sounding natural and that has been my primary focus moving forward.

I am not sure how much help I can be to the OP. @thomaskong feel free to tag me or message me if you have any questions. I tuned out of the thread after things started to get personal, my only advice regarding buying them as an investment is to keep in mind that the age group interested in these WE speakers might not be around by the time you are ready to sell them. I really don't mean to sound grim here and I don't know of any other way to word it. I would personally not be taking money out of the market right now (unless there is some tax loss harvesting that can be done), I have done this while my tech stocks were still sky high, but that was months ago. I am sitting on more cash than usual waiting for a good time to put these profits into the S&P and US total stock market indexes.

So I am happy to briefly touch on my horn journey. I am not going down the WE/Siemans, etc route. First and foremost my two primary goals are acoustic music to sound natural and neutral. I also want true live like dynamics and horn speakers are the only ones capable of this (including horn loaded bass).

As such the best systems I have heard capable of this are all what is known as constant directivity where the reflected sound is identical to the direct sound. So that when the sound bounces off the walls it is tonally similar/same to the direct sound from the drivers hitting your ears. Floyd Toole has done decades of research on this and the most highly trained listeners always preferred this type of true neutrality in blind testing. My experience listening to these style of speakers has shown me the exact same thing.

However I am not purely going down this route, if I were I could buy something like the JBL M2 and call it a day. I still want very high efficiency and the bass system is what will determine the efficiency of the system. Secondly I want to use really good amplifiers ala FirstWatt SIT or custom built SET amps using things like nickel output transformers, filament bias on the DHTs, etc. In my opinion it is this high efficiency in bass that creates that effortless, natural, flawless transparency that gives the illusion of live music. I'm also having a room custom built for this purpose, solely dedicated to this system. I'm chronicling this more on another forum.

This is a picture similar to what I'm doing, just for illustration purposes to show the midbass horn and constant directivity mid/treble horn on top. I am using TAD 4002/4003 drivers on the mid/treble CD horn. The midbass horn is still a work in progress, one manufacturer from Norway is who I am following.

 

@hvbias - thanks for posting. No, haven't made it to david's, which is almost around the corner, now that I'm in Texas. I would still like to do so. Good to hear from you!

 

I don't know that I would think of audio as an investment, per-say.

I do think you can carefully purchase select audio equipment, so that you retain the most that is possible out of the monetary investment that you have in that audio.

I do that by purchasing pre-loved gear and gear that is often sold at close out prices.

Most older vintage tube gear like the restored vintage Fisher 500C receiver that I have, will not depreciate in price and due to inflation, costs more than it would have originally have sold for back in the early 60's.

Not that it would have represented an investment of one back in the sixties and selling it on today's market.

Still, a typical vintage Fisher 500C receiver may sell for around $1k on today's market, give or take around 20%.

I don't see that dollar amount decreasing over the next several years. The cost of restoration's are likely to go up in cost, due to rising labor rates and increasing costs of vintage tubes, due to their available supplies decreasing.

What ever I may buy, in the way of new audio gear, will more than likely be worth 50% less than I paid for it over the next 3-5 years.

Five years down the line, I believe that my 500C will still be worth $1k on resale.

Not an investment, but being able to enjoy quality audio gear as a hobby and not loosing a lot of money at the same time.

Speaker's like the WE's represent something of value to high end collector's, but only if they are all "original".

You might buy reproductions that look the same and might even sound better, but original collector's pieces are what will ultimately retain their value.

I would rather purchase a piece of valued original equipment at $300k, with the hopeful expectation that it will at least retain somewhere the value of the price that I paid for it, than an replica for half that amount, that may only be worth half again the amount that I paid for it in another 3-5 years.

For me, it is about enjoying my hobby to the fullest extent that is possible for me and not needlessly throwing money out the window, every time that I exchange out a piece of gear.

 

Based on what you said, I guess best deal would be buying used replica? Half of $30k of new replica is $15K.

So a used replica at $15K that sounds like $300K? Yes, I am all for it.

: )

 

My example would have been that a replica of a $300k speaker might be had for $150k, so a good deal on a used $150k replica might be $75k.

Most certainly a bargain!

Me, I an satisfied with having a couple of old painted plywood boxes. Only half as old as the WE and a bit less expensive.

1936 /
A GROUP OF WESTERN ELECTRIC SOUND ENGINEERS START THE “ALL TECHNICAL PRODUCTS COMPANY.” THE NAME IS LATER CHANGED TO ALTEC SERVICE CORPORATION IN DECEMBER 1937.

1941 /
ALTEC SERVICE CORPORATION BUYS LANSING MANUFACTURING COMPANY, HEADED BY JAMES B. LANSING, AND FORMS THE ALTEC LANSING CORPORATION ON MAY 1, 1941.

1943 /
ALTEC LANSING DEVELOPS AND PRODUCES THE FIRST DUPLEX SPEAKERPHONE, A VERSION IS STILL THE WORLD STANDARD COAXIAL SPEAKERS.

1945 /
ALTEC LANSING INTRODUCES PROFESSIONAL SPEAKERS THAT MAKE A MAJOR CONTRIBUTION TO THE QUALITY AND FIDELITY OF AUDIO AND BECOME THE “VOICE OF THE THEATRE”.

So, my vintage Altec's are WE inspired, just not as old and not are rare.

Here is my A4 theater cabinet. Fortunately, it is just a rare model that was used by salesman back in the day, when they called on the owner of a new movie theater being built or renovated. The real wooden bass bin would be 7' tall.



Kind of WE on the cheap! Roughly 1/30 the price of the large WE system and just a wee bit smaller.



A bit close up. Efficient enough that I can run them with a 3.9-Watt Single Ended Pentode tube amplifier.

I'm glad you asked that question. Maybe a pair like this one?