What’s the deal with old Dual turntables?

Those old Dual turntables like the 1219.
Automatic and a ton of rumble because they’re idler drive...

Why are so many people into these things?

 

They're kind of like little mechanical pieces of art - complicated enough to be interesting and when well maintained, still can work really well even though they're 40-50yrs old.

But, to me, they seem most appropriate for a vintage system. I don't imagine someone with a higher end system would ever use one as their main table. I have a 1229 that's functional but can use a complete overhaul, but since I have only one main system now, it's sitting on the sidelines and I use a more modern table (Marantz TT-15S1) as my main table.

If I were to set up a secondary system in a bedroom, garage, wherever, I wouldn't have any problem using the 1229 though.

 

Ah yes, as a secondary device it’s quite decent.
I think the mechanics on the inside look interesting, with all those levers and large gear in the center to push the tonearm back... but those mechanical things always get gummed up and the steuerpimpel breaks down (it’s literally the only partname I know of the Dual mechanism, because they break down so often).
W/f of 0.09% is decent, but not anywhere close to good modern turntables... not to mention the -50 to -60 dB rumble.

So it’s a turntable to buy as a curiosity or secondary turntable?

 

The CS 701 was pretty advanced for 1973, one of the quietest tables ever, and the first direct drive to use a coreless motor, lots of innovations. Kind of dated in the looks department, but a super performer, especially with some upgrades. The EDS1000 motor is now legendary, so they are hard to find these days, people buy them up just to strip out the motor, often building it into their own plinth. Sent most of the big Japanese companies back to the drawing board in a mad scramble to introduce their own cog-free direct drive tables, and most of them did eventually release some pretty amazing ones, even though a couple tried to cheat a bit and copy the Dual design too closely, and had to do some redesign work or face litigation.

But I guess this thread is more about the idlers, which I've never spent much time with. Dual does have a pretty loyal following still, they have a certain look that sets them apart.

 

People buy vintage muscle cars because they were fast in their youth. By today's standards, they aren't fast at all. Back then a car was extremely fast if it could go from 0 - 60 mph in 6 seconds. Today, cars are doing it in 2.5 seconds. People still want them. Back then you could get out wrenches and make them go faster. Today, you need to do a firmware upgrade to make them faster. The same thing goes for those turntables. There's not a lot to tinker with today, everything has chips and circuit boards.

 

Nice, I didn’t know that Dual introduced coreless DD first, I thought it was Sony that introduced it and recycled the design later on in their Betamax devices.
Funny how that 701 looks a lot like a 1219 when the platter is mounted.

Correct, I referred to the idler drive automatics, like the 1200 series.
I can see why someone would want a coreless DD turntable.

 

Hmmh yes, sentimental reasons was one of the reasons I suspected.
Can’t be for the looks though, in contrast to muscle cars, because most muscle cars actually look cool.
Those Dual turntables certainly don’t.

 

Nice specs. Doesn't surprise me that it performs that well, since it's a direct drive.
I probably should've been more specific about Dual idler drives in the title

 

And just imagine how much greater it's gonna sound when it's finally broken in!

Jeff

ps. Nice specs and indeed pretty typical for DD turntables of the day. My circa 1982 Yamaha P-850 has wow & flutter of 0.015% wtd rms (claimed) / 0.025% DIN 45-507 (measured); and rumble of -77 dB DIN-B (claimed) / -63 dB ARRL weighting (measured) - measurements made by Audio and published in September 1982.

 

Some of the belt and direct drive models were indeed better. I find only the later versions to still be near what they were new, performance-wise though. When any of these were new, they were servicable and sounded nice, if not excellent. The years are not kind to such over-engineered units however. Automatic functions are a nightmare as are many of the other mechanical contact points. Even electrical contacts in them are problematic, such as the infamous headshell to cartridge "sled" mount.
-Bill

 

Gawd... those sled type headshells are a big troll... I've repaired some old Philips and Aristona turntables that had those.
Contacts were corroded, wasn't able to solve it with Deoxit and steel wool would mean the contacts would become too thin.
Had to improvise new pins by using crimp pins meant for Dupont-like parallel connectors.

 

I bought a 1214 back in 74. It played well until I replaced it with a Technics SL-3300 DD turntable.

Whether or not one like the looks is purely subjective. A few years ago I bought a 1249 mainly for the looks. It needed a lot of work; took me quite few sessions in the garage to get it running smoothly. I nearly gave up on it once or twice. In the end though, it was a fun project and I ended up with a cool looking (to me) turntable.

 

Nice home project!
Even if it's not that great looking, it's still satisfying when it's a job well done

 

It isn't worthwhile from a time investment standpoint. I have only fashioned one or two new contact pins on these. I generally just junk them if they are mine at that point. It's one of a couple of repair dilemmas with these. If it's a customer's unit, I either get upside-down in repair time vs time charged, or I am smarter going in and just advise the customer to cut their losses rather than waste my time and their money on it.
-Bill

 

Yeah, that's the commercial context. Always make sure to know how far a customer is willing to go (or how long you're willing to let other orders wait).

If it's a personal project, it doesn't really matter or it can even be nice, if you overcome a hard to deal with issue.

 

Not that great looking? I say a true beauty.

 

Nice, looks near mint, that must've been a lot of work!
Idk about the design though...

 

Yea, uses the EDS-1000 coreless motor like the 701, just a lower torque variant designated as EDS-1000-2, along with a lighter platter.

 

Mine has zero rumble. But if you have one, and have never had it maintained or rebuilt, then you are liable to have all kinds of problems. If you bought a car from 1972 that's just been sitting in a barn, what exactly do you think will happen when you try to drive it? Or even start it?

I'm never getting rid of mine, but I know how to work on it. I haven't had to do anything to it in the last 10 years though.

 

I don't really have an issue with the old Duals. If people like them, great.

The reason I don't mess with them is because you really need a good local technician that knows these Duals, or you need to be prepared to put in some time figuring out things for yourself. They can have gummed up grease inside and other issues.

For the average person, I would recommend one unless it's been fully serviced by a reputable Dual tech. There are a couple of guys that have national reputations for this in the U.S.

 

As a home project it can be fun too, if one has sufficient time available.
In contrast to most electrical appliances, I think these mechanical devices are way better serviceable at home.

 

Yup. Someone buying a 50 year old unmaintained gadget, with what I'd call an extremely complicated mechanical mechanism and expecting it to be "plug and play" is asking a lot. But it definitely has a sound that I prefer over most of the more modern designs that I've heard, in that I find it more "organic".

I've heard all of the arguments against owning Duals in the probably 25 years that I've owned my current one and personally, I dismiss all of them. But then, there was a time when I'd buy old ones just to rebuild for the hell of it. It's German. Of course the engineering is complex and of course, it will last forever.

 

Nothing lasts forever. Some things just die more gracefully than others.
-Bill

 

No issues with my Dual 505 Belt Drive. Mind you I don't play it often...