When does a ‘new’ band member become a ‘real’ band member?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Ricky Lampoon, Oct 10, 2021.

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  1. Mickey2

    Mickey2 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bronx, NY, USA
    In the case of the Stones, I think a better example to point to is Darryl Jones, who's been with them since 1994. Ron Wood was admitted as an "official" member right from the beginning when Mick Taylor quit. Jones, on the other hand, still hasn't been, which is why the "official" 5 member band has been reduced to 4 since Bill Wyman left.

    In this case, I think it may have a lot to do with "image," where the big burly black American musician doesn't "look" like a Rolling Stone whereas Wood does with his pasty complexion, slim rock star physique and spiky long hair. Going way back to the beginning, their original manager determined that founding member, Ian Stewart, didn't fit the image and was thereby relegated to roles outside the photo frame.

    I imagine Steve Jordan will experience the same fate, as has other touring members of the band over the years (e.g. Chuck Leavell), where now it may be just as much a matter of compensation and "share" of the band's profits as one of image. Besides, at this point after more than 50 years, new members wouldn't be accepted as "real" members by fans anyway.
     
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  2. Jmac1979

    Jmac1979 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    Ronnie has been in the Stones close to 50 years, what does he need to prove?
     
  3. MrCJF

    MrCJF Best served with coffee and cake.

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Porcupine Tree are a strange one, as they were originally a fictional band with fictional members, then one of the creators (Steven Wilson) decided it should be a front for his solo musings, away from his day job with No Man, then it grew into a proper band with four members listed on sleeves, then they got a fifth musician who wasn't a member but played on a few albums and a few tours until the band stopped working (but didn't officially split) about ten years ago. But some music websites do list fifth man John Wesley as a member. And one official archive release by Porcupine Tree features only Wilson and Wesley playing an acoustic show.

    Then suddenly this year three members register as a limited company called Porcupine Three, so one of the four "proper members" Colin Edwin, is out. As yet no official statement from Porcupine Three/Tree or it's members to the media, but they are reissuing stuff dating from the four piece band. Which might be the only purpose of the limited company, but obviously fans are speculating wildly and hopefully about new Porcupine Tree material, as many of them don't like SW's latest solo offerings.

    So did the 'Tree not exist as a corporate entity until this year? Was it entirely Steven Wilson's whim as to who should be listed on the album sleeves as members?
     
  4. Two of Diamonds

    Two of Diamonds X

    Location:
    X
    Hey any band where people love totally different things has something going for it. I keep all the Jane’s and PFP and Deconstruction and all that on the same shelf.

    I might only be thinking about Then She Did, my favorite. and while learning the guitar for that, it occurred to me that Navarro was just following Avery. That might be what I am primarily thinking of. I have a bunch of their post-Jane’s stuff and I’m interested in all of it because they all have good ideas. Thanks for the discussion.
     
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  5. speedracer

    speedracer Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cascadia
    When the other band members decide not to give him one of these :

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. AC1

    AC1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Antwerp, Belgium
    They only become real band members when they improve the band or their contributions are just as valuable as their predecessors and you never ever want them to leave.
     
  7. Crimson Witch

    Crimson Witch Roll across the floor thru the hole & out the door

    Location:
    Lower Michigan
    When one appears in a picture of the group on their album cover.
     
  8. veloso2

    veloso2 Forum Resident

    they simply became another band tehn they were the band with hugh. his guitar parts and lyrics were just a great part of the stranglers identity! no less. i didn't want the stranglers just to rock, they were so much. But you're right after aural sculpture that i still like, it went downhill and the magical weren't still there!
     
  9. notesfrom

    notesfrom Forum Resident

    Location:
    NC USA
    First paycheck.
     
  10. Fabrice Outside

    Fabrice Outside Forum Resident

    Location:
    EU
    The day the money is evenly split
     
  11. Pizza

    Pizza With extra pepperoni

    Location:
    USA
    Never unless your name is Ringo. ;)
     
  12. andy obrien

    andy obrien Forum Resident

    Location:
    watford
    Is he the guy that does all the cool dancing (with pork pie hat) and the intro to One Step Beyond? Definately an important member! Hes great in the film they made, "Take it or leave it".
     
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  13. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    Like many have already said - they become a "real member" when they become a full profit participating partner, with their name added to ALL of the relevant contracts. Unless or until that happens, they are at best a glorified employee.

    BTW - TONS of misinformation on the Stones in this thread. This is the truth AFAIK:

    Mick Taylor became a full profit participating member after ONE year. He didn't quit because he wanted more money - he was making the same money as a band member as everyone else was. Two things made him quit - fear of death from the band's increasingly druggy lifestyle and feeling he was not getting properly credited/paid for songwriting contributions he'd made.

    Ron Wood became a full profit participating member when Wyman quit - just before they signed a new record contract. Basically they didn't need to dilute the shares to cut him in, since Wyman quitting meant that they could just give him what would have been Wyman's piece of the pie going forward had he not quit - rather than being greedy and just splitting up what had been Wyman's share between the three of them (Mick/Keith/Charlie) and continuing to leave Wood on salary.

    I suppose its possible they could do the same for Daryl Jones (ie give him Charlie's share going forward) BUT since Charlie died and didn't quit, his estate may continue to hold his one quarter share of the band.

    Personally I think they see Daryl Jones the same way they see all of their auxiliary players on stage and in the studio, and that is as strictly employees, and I can't see that EVER changing - especially since many of them have been with the Stones for a lot longer than Daryl has. Not to mention they don't even pretend to the public that Daryl is a member of the band the way they did with Ron Wood for the 15 years or so before they actually made him a full profit participating member.
     
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  14. markreed

    markreed Forum Resident

    Location:
    Imber
    What about bands that don't have their photos on the cover? Genuine question, plenty of bands don't that!
     
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  15. nicotinecaffeine

    nicotinecaffeine Forum Resident

    Location:
    Walton, KY
    The ultimate FNG.

    [​IMG]

    So says Lee and Lifeson.
     
  16. Crimson Witch

    Crimson Witch Roll across the floor thru the hole & out the door

    Location:
    Lower Michigan
    Then no one is a member !

    photo or it didn't happen!:p

    ha!
    But seriously, certainly when a musician appears in any promotional press photo for the band, most fans would consider them a member.
    In lieu of such photos, they would otherwise be on equal footing with the other band members, in terms of pay and/or (at the least) concernment.

    But bands as they may stand in legal business terms can and do fall under any number of contractual arrangements from case to case, and so as far as fans are concerned, it is really a matter of how important or valued their role in the music may be perceived. Case in point―Ron Wood began appearing on Stones album covers almost from the moment he began playing on their recordings, but we would later learn that he did not have an equal financial share as the other original members on the business side of things until sometime in the 199Os.
    So officially, whatever that means, he wasn't a “full” member. Lawyers and tax collectors may care about that but I'm quite certain most Stones fans do not.
     
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  17. radioflyer

    radioflyer Forum Resident

    Location:
    90501
    For me, a band member is “official” when they are included in official press photos and listed on albums as a member and not an auxiliary player.
    The reality is that in the current industry climate, new members have about 0% chance of becoming an official/equity band member because the remaining members don’t want to give up another piece of the pie, especially if they’re still dividing up for members that have left but still collect, such as Bun E. in Cheap Trick.
     
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  18. The Elephant Man

    The Elephant Man Forum Resident

    Three years and 7 days after his or her first gig with the band.
     
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  19. Jack Furth

    Jack Furth Forum Resident

    Location:
    Blacksburg, VA
    A member is a member if the band says so. But obviously there's a meaningful distinction between the original Beach Boys and whoever are in them now.

    So I'd say--if a member changes the sound of the band in a meaningful way, rather than just show up to slavishly recreate older sounds, they're real to me.
     
  20. Jack Furth

    Jack Furth Forum Resident

    Location:
    Blacksburg, VA
    Yes, and after they do the official band induction dance in front of an audience of their peers.
     
  21. joepepitone

    joepepitone Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Anybody who follows The Dictators closely, knows that Handsome Dick Manitoba (due to interpersonal conflicts) and Scott Kempner (due to health problems) have been replaced with guitarist/singer Keith Roth. On top of that, long-time drummer J.P. Patterson, has been replaced with Albert Bochard (Blue Oyster Cult). It's being marketed as the original Dictators getting back together, but that's a stretch and I'm not buying it.
     
  22. cosplusisin

    cosplusisin Forum Resident

    Matt Cameron was also the "new" drummer of Soundgarden, two years into the band's exsitence, but I suppose it wouldn't count, given that they hadn't released anything before he joined the band. But staying on the topic of Soundgarden, their bassist Ben Shepherd wasn't in the band until several years into their existence, after 2-3 albums, but he was certainly considered a "real" member of the band from when he first joined, given that his first album with them was their breakthrough (Badmotorfinger). Similar story for Dave Grohl in Nirvana. The answer to the question that the thread title asks, from the perspective of the fans accepting them as a real band member, is essentially when they've been involved with what is considered the band's most important works.

    And since my entire post is apparently about 90s Seattle bands, I will also mention William DuVall, who has been singing for Alice in Chains for their last three albums, beginning in 2009. Some fans will say "it's not AIC without Layne", and of course their newer albums are not considered "classic" in the same way that their 90s stuff was, but most fans (myself included) consider him a real band member. The band lives on, and he's been a contributing member, writing songs, etc. since he joined. And their newer work is quite good.
     
  23. WarEagleRK

    WarEagleRK Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chattanooga, TN
    Then you have a guy like Chuck Leavell who has played keys with them since 1981 and is the on stage musical director who has been a hired hand for 40+ years at this point.
     
  24. pscreed

    pscreed Upstanding Member

    Location:
    Land of the Free
    Surprising to me there are so many posts here about who is in the band’s pictures. At the level of the Stones, or Bon Jovi, or whoever… It’s a business. If you aren’t an equity partner in the band’s brand, you’re a hired hand. Nothing wrong with that. I’m sure some of those paychecks are pretty darn healthy.

    Its a whole lot different than who is “in the band” on a local scene or your kid brother’s garage band.
     
  25. Carl Swanson

    Carl Swanson Senior Member

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