Where is the magic in a SHM disk?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by thesisinbold, Dec 21, 2011.

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  1. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    I don't think anyone has called you a liar. If you believe what you say, then you're not lying; at the worst, you're just mistaken. And there's always the chance you're hearing something real. I don't doubt your belief. I know I can't hear a difference, and you have to trust me that I'm telling my subjective truth, too.
     
  2. Espen R

    Espen R Senior Member

    Location:
    Norway
    Do I?
     
  3. rburly

    rburly Sitting comfortably with Item 9

    Location:
    Orlando
    That's been my take on these CDs as well. It's a way of marketing the loudness war by saying that it's the material that the CD is made of, and nothing else. Also, make the price outlandish and it'll be new and special.
     
  4. pig whisperer

    pig whisperer CD Member

    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan
    This was the Blu-spec jazz sampler, right?

    Mastering engineer Joe Palmaccio could also hear a difference when he compared the CD and Blu-spec CD for his ELO mastering.


     
  5. KeithH

    KeithH Success With Honor...then and now

    Location:
    Beaver Stadium
    Barry, I have a sampler where one disc is a standard CD, and the other is an SHM-CD. The content is identical on the two discs. They sound quite different, but I actually preferred the standard CD. The SHM-CD was louder and bass-heavy. I never compared them in EAC to see if they had the same peak levels, but it sounded to me like the mastering was different.
     
  6. pig whisperer

    pig whisperer CD Member

    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan
    This is true. It doesn't matter which material is better if the mastering stinks. I hear very few newer masterings I am impressed with.


    EDIT: The SHM-CD rock sampler is an awful mastering. Sure, it shows the difference between the CD and SHM-CD (this is a two CD set), but who would want to listen to it on anything other than a mini-system?*

    * It is a fun comp and I listen to it on the mini system.
     
  7. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    Were any of these observations made from blind (ideally, double-blind) listening experiments?
     
  8. KeithH

    KeithH Success With Honor...then and now

    Location:
    Beaver Stadium
    Popcorn's ready!
     
  9. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    Toffee for me, please :D

    I'm not trying to break forum rules on ABX discussions etc - I just want to clarify how Barry came to his conclusions.
     
  10. Leigh

    Leigh https://orf.media

    SHM is a solution searching for a problem, the problem being the pits and valleys of a normally pressed CD being "hard" for a typical laser pickup to read.

    I have a Japanese sampler which contains 1 disc with the songs pressed on a normal CD, the second with the same songs but the SHM treatment. It's made ostensibly so people can hear the dramatic difference. I ripped tracks on my $5 DVD drive and they are digitally identical. That's all that matters. My $5 DVD drive didn't have a problem ripping either disc.

    I can't wait until they come out with SHM-FLAC. That will be AWESOME.
     
  11. Music Geek

    Music Geek Confusion will be my epitaph

    Location:
    Italy
    I doubt the magic is here:

    [​IMG]

    so I guess it is probably here:

    [​IMG]
     
    Dinstun likes this.
  12. gabacabriel

    gabacabriel Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK

    If this is the case - and I have no reason to believe otherwise - it makes a strong case for not even having a CD player in your hi-fi...just rip the disc to hard drive, and link the hard drive to your amp. Presumably the audio fidelity obtained will be down then purely to the quality of the DAC in the chain?
     
  13. Jay F

    Jay F New Member

    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    +1
     
  14. musicalbeds

    musicalbeds Strange but not a stranger

    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I don't own an SHM cd so I can't offer my experience in comparing them, but I have heard digitally identical cds that don't sound exactly the same, so I agree with your point. It's controversial for some reason...maybe because digitally identical cds often have one version much easier to find cheaply and saying they aren't the same makes it sound like we're trying to push prices up on the "grails", but it's true in my experience, so it makes sense the SHM will sound differently.
     
  15. stephen@hennefer

    stephen@hennefer New Member

    Location:
    UK Horwich
    I read your reply, as, addressing the OP (naughty violation!).

    Once you've ripped successfully there won't be a difference in sound, via hard-drive playback, in my opinion.
     
  16. carrolls

    carrolls Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dublin
  17. GeddyLeeFan

    GeddyLeeFan Active Member

    Location:
    Aurora
    The magic is in the hands of our gracious host, Mr. Hoffman. SHM or not, it doesn't really matter. Sadly he can't remaster everything in this world but wouldn't it be ace if he could?
     
  18. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    Where?
    In that place, Bo
     
  19. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi gabcabriel,

    I don't know the answer to this. I know there are some SHM sets that feature both the regular CD and the SHM CD, both from the same mastering.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  20. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi carrolls,

    I'm referring to any transport or disc player in my experience.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  21. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi Gerry,

    I'd never argue with what anyone enjoys.
    That said, I don't find the sound of the SHM discs I've compared to their CD counterparts, in any way "enhanced". Quite the contrary: it is more a matter of things being missing from the CD, rather than added by the SHM.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  22. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi Darcy,

    Yes, that was the one.
    The differences - when listening from a transport or player - are, to my ears, quite far from subtle. At first, I would have bet I was hearing two very different masterings with very different EQ.

    Bringing both versions into the computer and running a null test showed me otherwise. Further, when listening from the computer, the losses hear from the regular CD in a transport or player were gone. From the computer hard drive, files extracted from both the regular CD and the SHM sounded identical - which is to be expected if they were from the same master.

    My experience over the years has been that most CD replication facilities deliver a product that does not sound very much like the master I send to them. Many of my colleagues have expressed exactly the same thing. Only the very best plants seem to be able to create finished CDs that get *very* close to the master from which they were made; so close, I need a direct, synchronized A/B to hear the differences. With CD from most other plants, the differences are obvious, so plain are the losses of focus and fine detail.

    Most folks who accept the "perfect sound forever" marketing line would be quite shocked to compare their favorite CDs, played on their favorite transports or players, with the masters from which those CDs were made.
    Happily, with the growth of computer music servers and proper extraction from these discs to hard drive, these differences no longer apply. But for folks listening via a transport or player, the shock remains.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  23. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi KeithH,

    Without knowing for certain if they are the same mastering, we don't know if you were indeed comparing the SHM vs. CD or mastering 1 vs. mastering 2.

    Also, even if it was the former, there are no rules for what a given person might prefer to listen to. I'm just saying the SHM sounds more like the master used to make it than the CD does. Even with regular CDs, I have found some replication facilities are much better than others at creating results that more accurately reflect the source.

    Just as with different DACs, this is separate from what anyone might like or not like. As always, it depends on what the listener seeks.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  24. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi Mal,

    Without treading too near the line of violating forum rules, the null test results would not change based on my knowledge of (or lack therein) of the files.

    The sonic comparisons were done with my assistant setting up the playback and myself simply listening. He sometimes wears glasses but his is not blind. Same for me.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
  25. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi gabacabriel,

    Having done just this, I agree 100%.
    As soon as I starting listening this way, I realized this (at least for me) is the future. (Actually, the present - as in, what a sonic and musical gift! ;-})

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
     
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