Which tubes should I get?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Stonegarden71, Nov 19, 2018.

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  1. SteevG

    SteevG Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois
    I always keep a close watch on any new tubes for a couple days whenever I swap them out. Do that with any tubes and you'll be fine. Watch for red plating or shorting inside the tube.
     
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  2. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Have just run the original stock KT88's in my PL Five.

    As one might be given to expect, that when I put a quad of NOS RFT's in the ANK L4 power amp, the midrange was beautiful.

    As you mentioned and what was completely unexpected, was the amount of bass that they produced, it is "suprisingly deep and yet controlled bass".

    I did source a back-up set for the RFT's. They seem to good quality control, so far. I think your issue, was just one of those things and may have happened after the tube was manufactured.

    I do think that the OP should keep this option on his radar.
     
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  3. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Sorry, I don't know the specific's of the underlying engineering. With my PL Prologue Five, I should be able to do the same thing. My power amp does not have a switch, I did not realize that yours had a switch. I don't know what the switch does, you will need to address that with PL directly or through one of their dealer's.

    Either way, I don't really see the point. I think the other power tube choices are better options anyway.

    JJ's don't have the best of reputations's when it comes to power tubes failing. I had a couple of their KT88's fail in a one of the Rogue M-120 monoblock's back in early 2014.

    I had been warned about the issues with the JJ's. They did in fact fail and they did take out other parts.

    Usually this would be a big thing, but there were two new quads of them that were included with the amp, when I bought it off of eBay a year earlier.

    Since the amps were around ten years old and had some wear on them. I had planned to run them until the tubes started to fail and then do the factory upgrade that Rogue offered to the M-150's, which I did.

    I will say that I really did like their sound.

    But, I will positively not use JJ power tubes in any more amps.

    The reputation that you have read about is not a myth, it is very real.

    As I am given to understand, that the JJ small signal tubes non't have these issues and are often used by amplifier manufacturer's.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
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  4. Stonegarden71

    Stonegarden71 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Ok, so yesterday I had the chance to do some A-B comparisons between my stock EL34´s and KT120´s Tung Sol branded.

    The guy I went to visit had some Klipsch reference that in size were more or less like my RX6, anyway, I thought it wouldn´t be useful to do the test with those, so I took with me a pair of RX2 that I have in a second system plugged to a Sansui 717.
    These are bookshelves, but they are not that far from the rx6´s I have my Prima Luna plugged to. I think it was a smart move because we started to listen with his speakers and I found out those are not my thing.
    In his pre amp section, we were running 4 stock 12au7 in the driver spots and 2 Mullard NOS in the gain spots. This is a difference from what I have, I have to remark it, cause I´m still running the 6 tubes that came with my amp. He didn´t have the other 2 Prima Luna tubes, and I didn´t have then with me cause none of us thought about that, so test went on with that difference in our pre´s sections. Amp was the same, Prima Luna Dialogue Premium integrated.

    So we plugged my monitor audio RX2, and with my EL34´s and we played some Dylan, Joni Mitchell, Beatles, Miles Davis. Then we switched to his KT120´s. Then we went back to my EL34´s but we played more heavy stuff, some zepp, purple, Hendrix as well as some floyd, and Kate Bush for some more poppy stuff that I listen to sometimes.

    The general impression is that like I´ve been told here, that classic tube sound is totally lost with the KT120´s. But I could hear a more open range of sounds, I mean, when we played shine on you crazy diamond, it was obvious with my EL34´s, that there were sounds in the recording that we were not hearing, both in the high and low range. Those were clearly there with the KT120s. With those, I missed some details I could listen to with EL34´s, most of them from guitar and voice.

    My conclusion for the moment is that the perfect tube does not exist, or at least, none of these 2 is, at least with the system we tried. Still, I´m willing to try some other stuff, and definitively I´d like to hear the whole sound range, so, I just ordered the following tubes, I think I will have enough to play for some months:
    2 12au7´s Mullard NOS for pre section
    2 12au7´s Tung Sol (new stuff) also for the pre, since they are not that expensive and I´d like to try them
    4 KT77´s Tung Sol, I want to see if I can still get the classic tube mids but with a little more punch than my PL el34´s.
    4 KT120´s Tung Sol, since I know sometimes I´d like to hear the whole range of what´s been recorded in an album. Even if my amp cannot take full advantage of them, as I´ve been explained here, I think it could be useful to have a set. For me it would be like if the band was playing and I could move into the room, so, different spots could give me different sounds. Not sure how safe for the amp and tubes is changing them all the time though, I suspect that should not be done once you make your mind with one sound. Particularly if you are not capacitated to repair it or basically doing anything except changing fuses and tubes.

    So that is pretty much it, I kinda broke my wallet with this order, and I am starting to think tube rolling could be an addiction, LOL, but I love listening to music and I think it it is very well spent money ideed.

    Thank you all for your kind suggestions and comments, I have lots of variants to try now, but I suspect this is not the end, so I´ll try to keep on learning from all of you and from now on, I hope with some experience of my own now. :)
     
  5. mjcmt

    mjcmt Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I like the sound of EL34s with a nice midrange bloom. While exotic tubes do sound nice, I'm plenty satisfied with the basic Electro-Harmonix brand.
     
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  6. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Some day when your wallet is refreshed, do try some KT88's. They are in that sweet spot between EL34's and the KT-120's.

    The KT88's will be not as big as the KT-120's, sound wise, but will be close. They will be much bigger than the EL34's, yet, they will retain your tube sound, they will keep those nice mid's, almost as much as the EL34's and the bass will be overall stronger. Maybe slightly more high's, but without sounding bright.

    I think that you will find your KT77's to be enjoyable overall.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2018
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  7. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I do too.

    But, NOS EL34's are the real deal when it comes to midrange magic, tubes of new manufacture simply do not.
     
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  8. Stonegarden71

    Stonegarden71 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I hope I will enjoy my KT77´s as well as my "to go" tubes for the moment, with the NOS Mullard 4003 in the pre section, and if I want to rock the apartment, I will use the KT120´s.

    I was also thinking as you suggested, for my next order, some KT88´s, not sure the brand and after that, I´d like to give a try again to someother EL34´s, if possible better than my PL ones, even if I think they are not bad anyway. With that´d be very happy and then I think I´d only buy again once the ones I have starts to wear out.
     
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  9. Roycer

    Roycer Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wyoming
    Please keep us posted//The only thing I will do now is try different cartridges on my TT..and maybe speaker placement..
     
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  10. Stonegarden71

    Stonegarden71 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Off course! I will be receiving my order probably by the end of the week friday I think, and I´ll be trying that stuff next weekend, even if it may need more or less 2/4 weeks for tubes to run in, I can post my first impressions once I run the KT77´s for a couple of days, as I´d like to try some different music stuff.

    Phono preamp and cartridge is something I´d like to improve in the future, since I still think with my digital setup sounds a little better (they´re really close though), but I´m really exited with all this tube thing for the moment now, so I´ll be experimenting with tubes for a while before getting involved in improving my phono section :)
     
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  11. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Electro Harmonic's are fine KT88's tubes for you to try. I have both them and Gold Lion KT88's and I personally don't see any real difference between them, other than the price.

    You can buy the KT88's that Upscale Audio sells for $40/ea., they will be fine.

    When you are ready to start changing out EL34's, do yourself a favor and save some time and money and buy a quad of NOS RFT's. They are available on eBay from a seller in Germany for about $280 for the quad.

    These are genuine NOS power tubes and will give you that right tube midrange with a natural sound and they will give you a surprising amount of bass, that you would not think could come from an EL34.

    These NOS tubes will sound better and last longer than new manufacture EL34 tubes. If you want the real EL34 tube experience, you will need to source some NOS tubes.

    The RFT's are affordable. Other's tend to get very expensive!
     
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  12. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    Fun thread for those up of us that like dabbling in tube, but are not necessarily hardcore.

    I would say, find a set of power tubes that you like and then play with the small tubes. There’s hundreds of options out there and most are very inexpensive and may make a bigger difference than the big tubes.

    That said, when I was rolling with my old VS110, I played with a few power tubes and found that I liked the 6550c better than the KT120s though everyone else was raving on the 120 as it was the big new thing. I found that the EH were the most listenable, but the TungSols had a more forward, brighter presentation. I never got to try the revered Winged C’s as they had gotten crazy in the market.
     
  13. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I have the KT-120's in the Cronos Magnum. They do do what they are designed to do. But I still prefer KT88's or the 65550's over the KT-120's. I just think they have a better overall sound to them and a more tube like quality.
     
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  14. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    I never tried the 6550's in the CMI I had. When I ran them in the VS110 they were just too hot (8 of them). I always thought the CMI generated too much heat. Maybe a set of 6550's would work in it. I loved thew amp otherwise (except the GenI phono stage and headphone amp were not good - Sorry if you own one, but they are truly bad!). No issues biasing the KT88's on the CM?
     
  15. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I have Rogue M-150 monoblock's with KT88's and a Rogue Stereo 90 which also uses KT88's. It unfortunately has too much hum and needs to go back to Rogue.

    When you have powerful amps like Rogue, it is best to use the tubes they were designed to use. The CMI has only had KT-120's in it.

    The Monoblock's have had KT88's and EL34's and EL34's are not a good fit in them.

    The Stereo 90 has had only KT88's.

    I think that you want to keep EL34's for amps that run about 35-Watts or less, if the amp runs on a quad of El34's.

    While you can push a lot of power through KT88's, it is not a good idea to do so with EL34's.

    Each M-150 monoblock has a quad of KT88's.
     
  16. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    Wasn't the KT120 the "Magnum" upgrade for the Cronos? I thought it was originally a KT88 amp.
     
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  17. BIGGER Dave

    BIGGER Dave Forum Resident

    Many years ago, I was offered NOS RFT/Siemens EL34 pairs for $50/pair. I thought “not as good as Mullard XF2, but fine for backup tubes”. I took two pairs. Guess I should have bought all he had!
     
  18. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I'm not that sure. When I became aware of it the regular version came with KT-90's. Then there was the Magnum version.

    Then they offered a KT-120 version, replacing the KT90's.

    I bought mine, used through eBay just before the II came out.

    It was the magnum version with KT-120 tubes and the optional tube cage.

    I believe that it ran me about $1,700 to $1,800.

    Now they are selling for around $1,200, since the II has been out a few years now. This is a good price for those wanting a high power amplifier.

    Mostly I ran the Monoblock's in the triode mode, at 75-WPC.
     
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  19. Musician95616

    Musician95616 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Woodland, Ca
    I have the PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP integrated and just did this retubing:

    1. 2 Brimars CV4003 in the center stage (gain) of the preamp section. NOS Mullards CV4003 in stage 2 and Brimars in stage 3
    2. 8 Tung-Sol KT150s for the output tubes.

    Not a cheap endeavor but my PrimaLuna is singing like nobody's business right now. Previously I've used Gold Lion KT77s and Tung-Sol EL34s for the output tubes, and Gold Lion 12au7s in the preamp section. This new configuration is much nicer to my ears.
     
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  20. Stonegarden71

    Stonegarden71 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I´m still waiting for my tubes to arrive, I ordered 8 days ago and the order was supposed to arrive yesterday but for some reason supposedly beyond Fedex control it got stuck in Memphis for 3 days, so I could not try anything yet, still with my stock Prima Luna tubes.

    It would be very interesting to understand how much 2nd stage and 3rd stages affects the sound (talking about 12au7´s). They usually say that the front ones are the ones you should concentrate if you want to really change sound.

    Premium HP takes 8 power tubes, man, that´s a number!! I think I might like kt150´s, I imagine they go deeper in frequencies you don´t catch with el34´s or kt88´s... You have to remove the cage though, not sure if I´d like to do that, besides, those tubes are really expensive... I liked kt120´s when I listened to them last week in a friend´s house though... That´s why I ordered 4 of those as well as 4 kt77´s. They are not Tung-Sol as I wrote before but Gold Lion, I made a mistake there.
     
  21. Musician95616

    Musician95616 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Woodland, Ca
    I did a lot of experimenting (tube rolling) with the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd stages of the HP. As you said, the front two are the ones that seem to have the most immediate effect on the sound. The 2nd and 3rd (drivers) were not as impactful. That being said, I did find a difference (to my ear) with the Mullards in the 2nd stage vs the Brimars. Since the Brimars are a little more upfront, the Mullards in the 2nd stage seemed to have a nice warming effect against the Brimars in the 1st stage.

    I wasn't sure about removing the cage, but the KT150s are quite visually striking. Most importantly: my wife doesn't mind the way they look. And really most important: they sound stellar.
     
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  22. Stonegarden71

    Stonegarden71 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    So, finally, after waiting a few more days than I expected, last thursday I got my new tubes:
    4 KT77´s, Genalex Gold Lion
    4 KT120´s, Tung Sol
    2 12au7´s Mullard NOS cv4003
    2 12au7´s Genalex Gold Lion (gold pins)

    First thing I did was swapping the stock EL34´s for the KT77´s. They didn´t make a big difference, but I could hear better and more rounded sound in overal, and what I mostly wanted: less bright. A Little more bass, but not that much, and punchier. Also top end is superior. Mids are more or less the same, like I said, less brighter. As I expected, this will be my everyday tubes, even if as I will tell later, there´s some stuff that for my taste, still sounds better with the KT120´s.
    There´s just one thing: Amp has a switch, one position for running EL34´s and the other for KT88´s and KT120´s. I don´t know that does it do, but since KT77´s are considered EL34´s, I tried first with the EL34 position, but since manual says it´s safe to play with that, I tried the KT88-KT120 position, and I found out I liked this one more for KT77´s, better top end and low end. But I really have no idea which of those 2 positions is the right for KT77´s. I think they shine a little more this way.

    Second day, I just focused on the pream section, I replaced the 2 center 12au7´s for the Gold Lions, I didn´t really notice anything different this time, a little more relaxed sound maybe, but nothing big enough to justify the swapping.
    So next I replaced the 3rd line of stock 12au7´s with those Gold Lions, so they can get run in, and I put the Mullard´s NOS in the first line.
    I must say this produced the biggest difference I´ve noticed in sound from all combinations I have tried: Mids are more clear, and I can hear some more detail, I think it was the best improvement overall, because it wasn´t just a trade off, just some things got better while others (highs and bass) stayed more or less the same.
    I think regarding small signal tubes I have found my spot, the question would be if I should get 4 more, for second and third line, I mean if they will pay out in sound improvement, since, everyone says second and third line don´t have that much to do with sound.

    Today I ran the KT120´s. Everything confirmed what I was already expecting since I had the audition 2 weeks ago.
    Sound is more powerful and rounded, but more sterilized as well, and it didn´t have that thing that make´s you stay up listening to music for one more album even if you know you must call it a day. I still think some stuff can benefit from their sound, for example music that has been remastered or recorded with not enough bass or highs. Hard rock and metal as well because of the extra punch.
    I think that what you get is a trade off from mids to highs and lows, so, mids are not that present, even if they are still clear and very enjoyable, you just don´t get that much detail in voices, guitars, piano, bandoneon or sax, for example, that is what ends up giving realism to music.
    Also, for playing early Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, and acoustic stuff in general, they might not be the best choice, since they will put “strenght” in reproducing sounds that are not even present in the recordings, and they would fail in reproducing with more accuracy and realism the ones that are indeed there.

    Tomorrow I will go back to the Gold Lion KT77´s, I think I will be running those most of the time, and roll the KT120´s only whenever I want to spend time rolling and changing the sound to rock a Little more.

    So, I think I´m quite happy with my tubes now, as for the future, as soon as my wallet grows up some more, I might:
    - Get 4 more Mullard cv4003 if I find out I can benefit from the swapping.
    - Try some KT88´s, just to know how they sound, could be Tung Sol´s or Gold Lions
    - Get some EL34´s, but I think this will be the last choice, since probably if I get reissues, they would give me a similar sound as the stock tubes that came with my amp.
    NOS EL34´s would be too expensive I think, but those are the ones that could justify turning me to EL34´s as far as I´ve learnt here.

    Anyway, for the next months, I´ll just give minutes to the tubes I´ve already gotten, by listening to all my favourite albums again, thanks to everyone that helped me making my choices by sharing their experiences and opinions. I know even if I´m already happy with my sound, it still can improve as well, as soon as these new tubes get run in.
     
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  23. Roycer

    Roycer Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wyoming
    Great review,Thank You very much...Thinking now I will order the KT77´s, Genalex GoldLion and give them a try, this is my first tube amp so I know nothing about tubes as of yet so your review has helped me a lot .:agree:
     
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  24. Stonegarden71

    Stonegarden71 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I think your Stevie Ray Vaughan albums will sound even more awesome with them!
     
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  25. Stonegarden71

    Stonegarden71 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I'd like to do one more update, because 10 days ago I got my last batch, 4 EL34 winged C SED, and I think in my system these are the best ones from all power tubes I've ordered, I've been running them since the day I got them, and even if Gold Lion KT77's are very nice, I think these are even nicer, and they play very well every type of music I play on them.
    So, after trying my stock PL EL34's, I got myself some KT120's, KT77's and ended up again with EL34's, but in my opinion far more better than the quad that came with my amp. I'm not going to keep on trying other tube models for the moment, since I think I've already got what I wanted.

    Also after experimenting a little bit with the 12AU7's, I found this to be my favourite combination between the 3 lines:
    1st: 2 Mullard NOS CV4003
    2nd: 2 stock PL
    3rd: 2 Genalex Gold Lions Reissues (Gold pins)
    I have to say that the most important change in sound overall, was done by the NOS Mullards.

    So I think my journey stops here for some time, since I'm really happy with my sound now.
    If I'm lucky and the Winged C SED tubes last for a long time, probably I will re buy a new quad, if they are available at the moment I might need to replace them. If they don't, I would go back to the KT77's, because I wouldn't want to re buy tubes that don't last long enough.
     
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