I got a question regarding Columbia matrix numbers. As I understand ZSS is for stereo mixes and ZSP is for mono mixes, But Can somebody explain to me the number & letter combination that is pressed in the deadwax, but isn't stated on the label. For example. I have a sly stone single of dance to the music with matrixnumber ZSP 135537-2C What does the 2C stands for, cause I have seen copies with different number & letter combinations? Thanks on advance
That was the second mix of "Dance to the Music" (5-10256). I have a copy with the first mix, which was somewhat "drier" (hardly any reverb), the instruments heard all through (i.e. the organ solo in the same volume, as opposed to being turned up and down at key points), and presented all the way through (notably, does not have a part of the near-end a cappella inserted near the end of the intro) - and the matrix number on the deadwax is stamped as: J ZSP135537-1C. (The "J" on early lacquers of such records indicated that they were part of the group that was pressed for DJ copies.) Incidentally, that first mix of "Dance to the Music" timed at 2:48 but was shown on the label as 2:38. The second mix, both in timing and on the label, was 2:57.
Thanks. I been trying to find one myself. But it is hard, cause there are also 45s out that indicate 2:38 on the label, but still contain the second version of 2:57... So the 1 in 1C indicates the first mastered mix. Do you also know what the C is indicating?
I fully want to understand this matrix nr. system, so still have some questions. A third lacquer cut, means that the third lacquer attempt was used for pressing up the actual records. So there won't be any 45s with -1B or -1A? Also, how can you tell a record was pressed at Pitman, NJ To make sure. The oddly J indication on your yellow stock copy is only stated in the deadwax area and not on the actual label, right? Thanks Edwin
When lacquers are cut, often more than one is cut at the same time for convenience, cost, and redundancy. Of course, we often can only surmize this from looking at (and listening to) the records themselves. Sometimes parts (the lacquer, mother or stamper) get damaged before they can be used, so then that matrix number might not make it onto an actual sold disc. More likely, as we believe to be the case with Columbia, several sets are made which are then sent on to the different pressing plants for processing and for the records to be made. So, the 1A, 1B, 1C might go to Pitman and 1D,1E,1F to Santa Maria for example. Or a different combination. It really does vary with how many discs were required to be made, initially, and the original distribution. For a low-volume classical disc, there might only be a -1A and one pressing run at one plant, for say Santana or Simon and Garfunkel there will be considerably more around the country. Often here we talk of the significant differences in the records made from these lacquers, which we hear. Columbia also had two places the lacquers were cut, in NY and in CA, which we call East and West coast. The East ones have stamped numbers, the West coast hand-written ones at least for the most interesting periods of production. Some discs have CP or CSM (or P or SM) in the matrix or on the label number denoting the plant originally pressing that disc. It's clear that after a while, parts wear out and may be exchanged between plants to do another run of discs at a later time. At that point, some of the P and SM parts can end up at the other plant, and you'll see the marks scratched out and replaced. So sometimes things are not what they seem. You should note that this system only exists on US Columbia group discs. Other companies have similar but different systems, or sometimes none at all. Other countries have different systems. It just makes it all more fun.
In the case of "Dance to the Music," the 1A lacquer probably went to Terre Haute, IN and 1B to Santa Maria, CA. And the J indicator was strictly deadwax, except on WLP's where it was on the label. But Columbia's New York studios cut many lacquers for one record, different groups going to different plants.
Thanks guys, this is really helpful. It is more than nice to understand the matrix numbers after 25 years of collecting ;-)
New to the forum and LOVE these posts. I'm learning a wealth of info and compiling a spread sheet of all of my LP matrix #s to take with me when I go shopping. A few questions for everyone, especially the illustrious W.B. 1. Do Columbia LP pressings (70s-later) that start with PAL or PBL in the machine stamped or hand scrawled matrix mean they were pressed at Pittman? Some of my Columbias have that and some have just AL or BL. I know a G or a G1 means Carrollton, GA (I've got a good story about that place because I went to UGA in Athens & worked at the mall record store) and a T or T1 means Terre Haute. However, those aren't part of the 'catalog' number. Usually scrawled away from the number a ways. And where were XLP..... stamped matrix numbers pressed with no other markings? (seen on The Cyrkle's Neon & other pre 70s LPs) 2. Why is the consensus that Monarch pressed bad vinyl? Did they get better in the late 60s-70s? People on AudioKarma forums RAVE about Zeppelin stuff pressed at Monarch. 3. I've got an 80s Rainbow copy of The Early Beatles with the Delta markings of Monarch (but no MR in circle) and the SRC logo stamp. Where the heck was this pressed? Also have a few other LPs (Josie Cotton, Roger Daltrey, Judy Collins) with the Delta markings and label says either PRC or AR or some such. Sometimes they'll have the SRC stamp AND the delta #s. What gives? 4. What about mid-60s Warner Bros. LPs that don't have any markings? I've got some Petula Clark Gold labels and Green W7Arts labels that have no designations. What is their 1960s code? I understand the JW / LW / WW but many of my 60s WB output doesn't have those. Thanks again for the wealth of info. I've been collecting records for 27 years (since I was 10) and never knew what ANY of this stuff meant until two months ago.
Let me see if I could tackle this, one at a time . . . No, actually; "P" in PAL/PBL indicated this was for regular popular "red label" releases (as well as for Epic LP's). Those intended for Columbia Masterworks had MAL or MBL leading off the machine-stamped matrix number in the deadwax. Pre-1970, XLP was for mono Columbia and Date LP's (XSM for stereo), while mono Epic and OKeh albums' prefix was XEM (and stereo, XSB). X indicated a 12" disc. I've no opinion one way or another on Monarch vinyl, but I guess why some people think their vinyl is bad has to do with their being cheap (meaning, low-cost) in terms of rates (that is, in some collectors' minds, "cheap" is always equal to bad). Monarch was among the cheaper plants for labels to go. By the time delta-numbered deadwax turned up on Capitol "rainbow" records in 1986, the numbering was not from Monarch or Alco. AR was a reference to Allied Record Co. of Los Angeles, which by then used their own "delta" numbering, probably an homage to Monarch? - and some of their metal parts wound up at Specialty Records Corp. of Olyphant, PA, which like Allied was then owned by WEA (Warner/Elektra/Atlantic) Manufacturing. And up to the late 1970's/early '80's, Elektra frequently had PRC Recording Corp. (in both their Richmond, IN and Compton, CA plants) press their product, hence the "PRC" reference. If any "codes" of 1960's pressings of Warners' product (including the 1968-70 7 Arts era) exist, they'd generally be a hand-etched "1A" or "1B" or whatever at the end of the lacquer number on each side (mostly on pressings from Columbia's Santa Maria, CA plant). Much of the lacquers for Warners' LP's through the 1969-70 period were mastered at Columbia's Hollywood, CA studios. Depending on where they were pressed, there'd either be a small stamped "P" (for Pitman, NJ) or large stamped "T" (or alternately, thick hand-etched "T"; for Terre Haute, IN) or thin hand-etched "S" (for Santa Maria, CA) strewn within the deadwax. Of course, all Columbia plants had 2.703125" diameter circular indent in the label area.
Wow!! I'm amazed at all of the info.. Thanks a bunch W.B. You're getting me further along in my cataloging quest..
Apparently this link is no good. any chance you can post an updated one? I'm very interested in the Monarch system!
Does anyone want to help supply me with Delta numbers used on the records in their collections? I'm only interested in those used on singles (45's & 78's and apparently 33 rpm singles) and, after March of `79, albums and 12" singles are included in the same numbering system. Thanks LOADS for any help any of you can give me on this! Reg Bartlette has already sent me thousands of numbers. I've got just shy of 23,000 in my list, so far. If I can find a list of all the records they ever pressed, that'd be even better!!
Follow this thread: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/monarch-delta-numbers-for-lps.298484/ This is the file updated by the OP of the above thread: http://heroinc.hostingsiteforfree.com/monarch/MonarchNumbers.pdf
I've also found that the "delta" numbers on post-1979 Allied Record Co. product (and some Specialty pressings) were actually from a plating/processing company called Sheffield Lab Matrix that had been founded in 1979 (their numbers sometimes had 'SLM' written before their delta numbers - which were considerably lower than Alco Research's delta numbers as on Monarch pressings).
Okay, so, WHEN did Monarch close up shop? My highest number in singles is from May `86, but from what I read within the past three years, Monarch was still pressing in the mid `90's, then sold the place to another plant who took over and stopped using Deltas entirely. Here's quick timeline of my involvement with Monarch: about 15 years ago, right after I helped Jon Goodman with his book about Dickie, I decided to do a similar book about all the break-ins I could get my hands on. There's at least 600, now. I have one on Melody and asked Goldmine readers to tell me about this record as I've heard it's not supposed to exist! I got an answer from one Reginald Bartlette, who seems to know more about Motown than Barry Gordy! After this, we started talking and when I told him of my huge collection, he asked if I could go through it for Columbia out-of-house pressings for another book he was writing. So I did. While looking through my 45's for his Z numbers, I started spotting a lot of them with RCA or Delta numbers and asked him if he was also going to research those in the near future (I might as well give him ALL the info in one pass!). He said he was not, but thought the Delta number project would be a good one for me to do, so I did, and he's sent me TONS of info on records pressed at Monarch ever since.
Actually, ElectroSound shut down Monarch in 1986 (probably in or about May), consolidated all vinyl pressing to its Shelbyville, IN plant thereafter - and then shut that plant down in 1991. Alco Research & Engineering (whose delta numbering system graced many a Monarch pressing) lasted about a year more, to 1987.
Thanks for all the info! As it was "recently" shut down, as opposed to a plant that was shut down 40 years ago, would it be possible to get their files so one could see what all they pressed?
I doubt that any paperwork would exist today, given all the change in ownership of Monarch over its 41-year history (from independently-owned to Cosnat/Jubilee Industries to Viewlex to ElectroSound), unless you check now and then on eBay and other places. It's not like with the Library of Congress which now has a bunch of papers of job orders emanating from Columbia Records' Bridgeport, CT plant up to its final closure in late March 1964. The thread on Monarch delta numbers started by Frank Daniels would likely be the closest we'll get to such documentation of what they pressed.
AND the list I've been compiling for about 10 years. My earliest singles Delta number is 6! I'm guessing one of the previous two records had only one Delta number on it and the other had 4: 2 for the 45 and 2 for the 78.
The only problem I'd have with this logic is that in a number of cases, hits are made via region! A record that's released in, say, Las Vegas might be a total flop, whereas the same record released in Erie would be a HUGE smash!! In that case, it wouldn't be a good idea for a label to ONLY press and release in just one location, no matter how few records they may THINK it'll sell. I know they don't want to lose money by pressing thousands all over the country of a record they don't think will be that big of a seller, but, the whole thing, no matter WHAT the record is, is a complete crap shoot!! Sometimes it's all based COMPLETELY on an accident! "Chicken Hop", by The Roosters, went NOWHERE until some disc jockey accidentally played it at 33 instead of 45! Suddenly, Felsted had a HUGE hit on their hands and ended up repressing it with the added legend on the label telling the buyer that the record is a huge hit if played at 33!
