Why do my CD's still sound better than flac files?

OK, sorry for misunderstanding your post! It really interests me, why this can sound different. There is (for me) no reason why this should be sound different.

Every setup I had installed, the sound were exact the same!

 

Hi Kevin,

Actually, it is offensive.
But I won't go down this road again.

Unless you have evidence of direct access to another's experience, assertions like that are nothing but offensive. I take them as evidence that whoever is saying them does not feel sufficiently confident to simply state their own experience is very different. (The confident folks I've met never tell me about my experience but only their own.)

This is exactly what I was trying to point out to you when I questioned your comments about EQ. It would be insulting to suggest you imagined what you reported. I might agree or disagree in terms of my own experience but there is no way I can have any knowledge of your experience. To suggest such would be insulting to you and expose a lack of confidence on my part.

Food for thought perhaps.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

We just mentioned one above - jitter. You have to have an open mind here.

 

Hi chriss71,

I believe you are looking at the issue purely in terms of digital data.
It does not appear you are considering the analog aspects.
The point is, we don't listen to data (unless one enjoys the sound of a fax machine). ;-]

There are countless examples of different CD pressings with identical data sounding different. There are examples of different application programs reading the same stream and producing a different sound.

I submit, there is more to this than is currently understood. In the absence of a known mechanism whereby such sonic changes will be engendered, all I have right now is direct, empirical evidence, gathered over many years, many systems, many tests, including blind ones. The results are too consistent (in my view) to suggest there is not something as yet unexplained going on.

Just my perspective of course.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

^Another excellent post Barry.

 

so I understand this, is the difference being heard between wav playback directly and flac being converted to wav on the fly ?

or is it any wav compressed to flac, but then converted back to wav (not on the fly), the sonic differences arise, meaning the original wav has changed after lossless FLAC compression ?

 

I don't have high-end equipment, but FLAC files played through my M-Audio 2496 card sound excellent. My CD player is an old Marantz 67SE, and it definitely colors the sound of CDs. However, I like the coloration. CDs played on my computer's DVD player through the soundcard sound exactly the same to me as the FLAC files--no coloration. I don't have Barry Diament's ears, but I'm pleased with what I do hear from my FLAC files compared to WAV files--no discernible difference. BTW, I use foobar with ASIO for playback.

 

when it comes to audio I prefer to shut-up and listen to what mr. bdiament has to say


respectfully,
business owner/multi-certified computer engineer

 

Hi Barry,

yeah, you are 100% right. In this thread I have only talked from the HD to the DAC! The thread is called "Why do my CD's still sound better than flac files?" and that are not in the analogue section!

Identical Data sounds different - have you checked the MD5 Checksum if these are really equal? I don't believe that the same MD5 File will sound different - THEY ARE BIT-IDENTICAL! Copy one file with the explorer, rename it and then look if it sound different - NO WAY!

 

Dear direwolf!

I just wrote here my experience and my understanding. Why should you shut-up? It will be very interesting what experience you have made!

 

if you have to ask you wouldnt understand

 

There's no difference between AIFF, WAV, FLAC, APE, Apple Lossless, SHN, WMA-Lossless or CD, if the rip is accurate, they are being played by the same device and are going through the same playback chain. Nor is there a difference between different CD pressings that are data identical. This is fact, all else is placebo.

 

The OP of the thread linked below brought up many good points on this topic:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=272372&highlight=

 

Yes! Crapfromthepast knows EXACTLY what he's talking about, better than I do. Listen to him.

 

Hi chriss71,

In all cases, the data have proven to be identical. No doubt.
It is the sound I'm referring to.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

I agree with Barry.

As discussed at length in the SHM thread, the digital stream of 0's and 1's is the same for bit-identical sources (same case with CDs), but the analog outputs can differ for reasons that are as yet unclear but aren't beyond the realm of physical possibility.

I'm still voting for a small amount of electrical noise seeping into the analog signal (as is my guess for why bit-identical CDs can sound different), but I'm not really sure what would be causing the analog noise in this case.

If we assume that the extra noise is caused from the processing required to decode flac > wav, then I'll propose a very, very easy experiment:

Try listening to the same wav file with different loads on your processor. Maybe listen once while you're encoding a bunch of files to mp3 in the background, and once when you're not doing that encoding. If they sound different to your ear, then we have a theory to work with.

 

Hi crapfromthepast!

Tested, no difference in sound! Many times and with many people on my system (because of my work and most of the time I compile programs for my customers)!

 

Evidence?

 

How should I do this? Test it on your own!

 

Kind of double standard here, eh? Why do you need any evidence for this? Why you're not asking for evidence from people stating the opposite?:thumbsdn:

 

He made a strong statement with no supporting evidence. Why should I take it on faith?

 

Exactly as Barry Diament did, no?

 

Interesting, I will try this again when I can find someone willing to humour me for long enough to test it. Do you know what the Windows Soundmixer does to the bit stream?

 

@Grego: Yeah, it can resample the signal!

 

Can we try to measure it on the DAC output?

I see on all the forums long discussions about these things, and I always take at face value that when people say they have heard a difference, then they have heard a difference. Full stop. There could be many reasons, but we can't really know for sure why. These reasons could be due to actual sonic differences, to mental tricks, extra earwax, or to other factors unseen or unknown. As Barry has said, we simply know someone says they heard a difference.

Barry, as a separate exercise, I've always wondered - is it possible to try to *measure* these sonic differences by somehow analyzing the DAC analog output signal of, say, a test tone file or sample music snippet? Would this possibly reveal some of the sonic differences that people hear? Do you know of anyone who has tried this?

The experiment would go this way: rig up your playback system and audio chain, using a test file (test tones or waves or even music clip) and then measure what's coming out of the analog output of the DAC (here's my ignorance - I don't know how to measure, or what to measure in that signal, but somehow measure in a way that would reveal sonic differences). Do the measurement several times with the exact same set up to establish a baseline for how the natural variation looks playing the same file, with the same player, with the same cable, etc.

THEN change ONE thing - whether it's the computer, the file format of the test file, the media player, or a cable - and measure the DAC analog output in this new arrangement. Again, take several samples by measuring several times with the same configuration. Then line up everything that was measured and compare.

I'm really curious whether there's a *detectable* difference that shows up. Now, we're only measuring what's detectable by our measuring instrument -- it has nothing to do with what a person hears and experiences. But wouldn't this be a great experiment? Can anyone do it, or has anyone done it? Such a test could be used to compare ANY change to the playback chain (operating system, computer, hard disk, cables, media players, file formats, etc.)!

-Steve