Why Frasier wasn't influential like Seinfeld and Friends?

Pick any episode and I'll gladly expose how that is incorrect. Any episode at random.

No show is perfect and no show will please everyone. And there were a bunch of episodes, characters, or jokes I didn't care for but wouldn't paint the show with such a broad brush as to be paint-by-numbers in its comedy writing. In fact, that show is largely respected among comedy writers because of how clever it was ; not because it recycled the same joke structure a million times per episode.

 

Not really, he's meant to be ok but average, which is why there is that joke about Elaine's "male bimbo", the idea being that Jerry is a league under that other guy in the looks department.

Elaine was also supposed to be average in the context of the show, until one of the last seasons, where she makes a reference to her being part of the "forbidden city" of beautiful women that men like George can't access. That comment clashed with who the character was in earlier seasons, where she complained about feeling inadequate compared to other, more gorgeous women.

The fact that they only date beautiful women on these sitcoms is not meant to be a comment on how good-looking the men are supposed to be in the context of the show, or some sort of male fantasy: it's just that ugly doesn't get to be on TV. Sometimes you get "TV-ugly" characters when it's necessary for comedy purposes (like with Uncle Leo on Seinfeld), but you never see "ugly-ugly".

 

I do. Sadly.

 

Just imagine if she and Jay Leno had ever had kids together Other than that aspect about both of them, she's ok otherwise I guess.

 

I'm not sure how you can disprove that with a single episode. He said that a large number of the jokes were variations of those, and I think he's right about that.

Another example were the jokes about Maris. I could see those coming a mile away and it felt like they did those every episode for the few four or five seasons. It got to the point where they were annoying and felt to me like a bit of a crutch, taking shots at a character we'll never get to see. The Bulldog line - "this stinks, this is total BS" - Frasier's agent literally being the devil, Lilith being some cold, frosty, b!tch that you could sense whenever she entered the state, the similar exchanges between Frasier and Niles, etc. They sure dipped into those wells quite frequently.

Not that that makes it a terrible show. I suspect you could say the same about any show that runs for many seasons. Kramer falling down happened literally dozens of times, and it usually succeeded in making me laugh. A lot of the stuff on Frasier is the same way. Some of it worked despite being used repeatedly, but some of it got old pretty quick.

 

I didn't like FRASIER, despite enjoying the character on CHEERS.

 

Frasier is a great show.

Jennifer Aniston is one of the best looking women of all time.

Yada, yada, yada.

Happy New Year!

 

I reject the premise of your question.

 

Frasier might be the only sitcom I watch these days -I never really liked Friends and even if at some point I liked Seinfeld I probably grew tired of it.

Sometimes I wonder whether it’s age-related I’m almost Frasier’s age and I identify with some of the situations (could it actually explain my recent move to an apartment?) and more and more I start to regard Kramer’s, Seinfeld’s lives as lazy and irresponsible...

 

I'm several seasons into re-watching Frasier for the umpteenth time on Netflix. It's my go-to program for laundry folding. My conclusion is that it's brilliant for the first few seasons, then it starts to get tedious. I'm at a point where I'm starting episodes, then I say, "I see how this is going to go," and then I skip it. Basically it turns into a How Can We Humiliate This Character This Week, usually Frasier. If it weren't for Martin and Daphne, there wouldn't be a show. It'd be nice if there a glimmer of hope for Frasier now and again, but for the most part he's an incorrigible idiot. I can't relate to his lifestyle at any point, but geez, it'd be nice if he weren't a complete fool at least for a moment.

 

You may believe that but it is factually incorrect. Joke structure can easily be verified and I guarantee recycling this same one given as an example a whole bunch of times per episode was simply not the case. Big fan of comedy writing and can tell you if there was a lack of depth in it on that show or if it was a reoccurring theme to simply use that specific joke format, I would've grown tired of Frasier very quickly.

Then, with respect, you've missed the point. Maris was exactly like Vera from Cheers. The writers enjoyed writing jokes about her so the anecdotes about someone we'd never meet would become more and more absurd until no actual human could've portrayed her. Feeling like the jokes are potshots is as far removed from the point of the humor. It wasn't a crutch as much as it was tradition in Frasier episodes to have jokes about that character, same as with Vera in Cheers.

You touched on one of my pet-peeves about the show; that Bulldog line was fine for the first episode he was in and that was pretty much it for me, as it was repeated 2-3x in that single episode. As for the rest, I was perfectly OK with it. These weren't characters we saw often at all. Maybe once a season if that in most cases and the jokes/scenes were brilliantly crafted.

For instance, Lilith may have had that aforementioned effect from Daphne once but that wasn't the point of the character. In Room Service, we see an amazingly funny episode where she sleeps with Niles and Frasier throws himself at her. In another I forget, she makes a pretense to be in town when in reality, she found a note Frasier had written asking for another chance immediately after their divorce that she only found a year later. In another one, she's with some other man which makes Frasier jealous. In all three of these (and again, merely from memory), the cold exterior is merely presented for the first scene or two only to reintroduce the character to the audience after which it's more or less shoved aside.

Bebe had an episode where she's trying to quit smoking so she can eventually inherit a mogul's fortune. We're familiar with the character but being unethical isn't the point of the episode in any way.

Personally, every Seinfeld episode has pretty much all of the traits that I've seen in every other episode ; Kramer being clumsy and falling or bumping into something, George yelling and throwing an exaggerated fit, Jerry repeating the same line with the tiniest differences over and over, and Elaine making a pained or awkward expression after witnessing something. Merely a question of preference in the end but all of that got old after the first episode I watched, to be honest. Maybe it's that I'm more OK with carefully crafted scenarios exploring similar topics than I am with immediate displays of redundant jokes (like the Seinfeld stuff I explained and Bulldog's annoying unfunny line).

Plenty of those episodes but there's a possibility the ones which stick in your mind are the ones where Frasier makes a fool of himself. One I remember just now is when Frasier caters to every character's emotional needs before and during a get-together, then there's a blackout and the others now are interested in joining a party upstairs which Frasier declines to attend. Nothing foolish about him in that one. Or the one where he explores with his mentor his own psyche. The list goes on but there are plenty of episodes where he is the butt of the joke and I'm OK with that as one of the traits I like about the character is how he is so careless and ends up putting his foot in his mouth only to have to recover.

Here's a great example when Frasier hosts a party for the gang at work whom he was accused of knowing nothing about;

CUT TO: Frasier talking to some guests, Dennis and Emily. Emily is a bit overweight. Kenny is behind him, whispering names.

Dennis: Great party, Frasier.
Frasier: Thanks. Glad you could come... [can't remember the name]
Kenny: Dennis.
Frasier: Dennis. You too... [can't remember the name]
Kenny: Emily.
Frasier: Emily. Say, when are you expecting?
Kenny: NNNOOO!
Frasier: [recovers quickly] ...this weather to change?

Also love it when Frasier is out-of-control angry. Kelsey Grammer never fails to make me laugh when Frasier's seething with rage.

 

There is a difference between the Cheers version of Frasier Crane and the version that was on Frasier.

 

Mostly that the CHEERS version was surrounded by enjoyable, funny characters, while the FRASIER version was surrounded by unfunny, annoying characters. (As opposed to funny characters who are annoying to the other characters, per SEINFELD.)

 

kreen never said anything about a single episode. The jokes were recycled over the course of the entire series and probably many times within each single season.

With all due respect, it's just a little offensive to bring out the "you've missed the point" line, as it implies that if someone doesn't like something about the show they just didn't understand it; it was too smart for them; etc. As a viewer, why should I care about how the writers felt when they wrote those jokes? As a viewer, I only care how those jokes come across when I'm watching the show and this is something the writers should be cognizant of.

Were you a writer on the show?

I think what irritated me wasn't simply that the jokes were pot shots at a character we didn't see. It's just not my kind of humor - like you say, becoming more and more absurd until no human could have portrayed her. Because when one watches the show, I think we are supposed to believe that a) Maris is real, and b) the characters are serious when they talk about her flaws, i.e. that she actually is as they describe. So, it's just a little ridiculous when it becomes clear that the things they describe can't possibly be true. Maybe the characters at some point began to exaggerate.

Anyhow, the Vera jokes were nothing like that. Vera felt like a real person, and men can relate to the jokes that Norm cracked about her. Plus, they were usually very quick one-liners. Like I said, the Maris jokes you could often see the joke coming a mile away, and as they became more and more ridiculous they simply, for me, became more and more tedious. Knowing now that the writers enjoyed writing these and so that's why they became more and more absurd isn't going to make me enjoy them more. Maybe Cheers just executed the jokes about Vera better? They were certainly funnier.

How does that change the fact that it was a recycled joke? No one is arguing that Lilith was only there so they could make that joke and then her character was done with. Again, as a viewer I know that no one can really feel a cold ominous gust of wind or whatever feeling they described it as, so to me the joke is pretty pointless. One can certainly make jokes about Lilith's coldness that are a bit more grounded in reality and relatable to her, since she definitely gave off the cold vibe (pale skin, tone of voice, the way she did her hair, etc.). It was almost like they thought we needed reminding that the other characters saw Lilith as a cold, heartless person, so they better get that reminder in there before the scene with her starts.

Again, doesn't change the fact that that probably came up as a joke every time the Bebe character was present in an episode.

You might get the impression from me that I'm not too enamored when things go off the path of realism and into the absurd. And that would be true, it's where my tastes lie, but definitely they lie there for a show like Frasier that is grounded in realism. Daphne's psychic abilities are a bit different, because this is actually something that exists in the real world (not actual psychic abilities, but people who claim to be psychics, and of course you can have coincidences happen that make you wonder). I thought they handled this part of Daphne quite well, and the episode where they tried to prove whether she was or wasn't and then Niles said he doesn't want to know at the very end; I enjoyed that episode.

Seinfeld is hardly realistic but that's always been the Seinfeld universe, and so I can accept that the characters and storylines got more and more absurd over time.

 

The exact words were "A large number of the jokes on Frasier were variations on the following structure."

That means, in plain English, most jokes followed this structure which is factually incorrect. Any episode will have a boatload of jokes and if I'd see a couple in that mold, that'd already be surprising... unless there's a theme where the scene or joke is repeated on purpose to prove a point.

Definitely not my intent to offend. In this case, it wasn't a question of empathizing with the writer ; just that the intent was entirely different from what you felt which was my point. Apologies for how that came across.

And that's pretty much the crux of it... and that's perfectly cool in my book. If we all liked the same thing, that'd be boring (to me).

I can't speak for the writers but I think it was just that the audience is in on the joke that Maris isn't a character we'd ever see, and as the jokes became gradually more absurd, the audience was supposed to be aware and understand it was being silly for silliness' sake. My take, anyway.

FYI, some of the Cheers writers migrated to Frasier.

That is sort of the way it works in TV. Especially considering how things were back then where there were no episode guides or the ability to easily keep track of episodes, seeing them out of order, etc. Writers oftentimes had to throw reminders to bring the audience up to speed, hence some exposure dialogue from time to time. I know you don't care one bit about that but that is the explanation for the need to emphasize how a character is when he/she first comes into a scene on those older shows. Nowadays, it is not really needed if at all.

In any case, once that synopsis was taken care of, the rest of the episode falls into place with whatever situation or conflict the character has to deal with.

I see what you mean and that makes sense. However, any show can become absurd if analyzed. How can Frasier possibly be making the millions necessary to pay for his lifestyle simply by being on AM radio, for instance? That single fundamental flaw flies in the face of most aspects of the show since a lot of the jokes are about or revolve around Frasier's expensive tastes and lifestyle. But we accept it on the face of knowing that is a plot device, as absurd as it actually is that an AM shrink DJ would make that much, year-in, year-out.

Tons of women falling (initially) for Frasier, a balding, chubby man is also laughable. But again, it doesn't matter. I don't spend any time whatsoever looking into that. I blindly accept it for the sake of comedy. Cheers was even more grounded than Frasier but still had tons of fundamental flaws. Almost nobody ever paid for a drink, the phone would be at either end of the bar depending on who needed it first, the regulars had day jobs they managed to keep while spending most of their day in the bar anyway, etc. All of that is set aside for the sake of comedy.

 

A large number doesn't mean most. 20% could be a large number. And I think it would be. If 1 in 5 jokes were variations on a certain structure, that's a pretty large share of the jokes.

I can respect that. But I'm not sure other shows handled it quite that way. I bring up Three's Company again, only because I'm watching re-runs of it lately, and they certainly didn't always mention traits about Mr. Roper or Larry. Of course, they were regulars on the show. Lana might be a better example. I don't recall Jack/Janet/Chrissy making a crack about Lana before she came into a scene. But again, Lana only appeared in something like six episodes, but they were consecutive. I think they intended to make her a regular character but it didn't work out.

With Frasier, it just seems to be something they did more blatantly than even other shows of that era. Besides, if the intent for Lilith in an episode is not to focus on her coldness, why even make the joke every time? And if she is to be the butt of a coldness joke, then just work that naturally into her scene. I don't know, it seems to me to not really be necessary. It's a sitcom, not some complex murder mystery where the audience might be helped to be reminded of a clue that happened an hour earlier.

Those are things you have to think about though in order to realize them. You have to kind of analyze the show in a way that most of the time I just wouldn't do. The jokes on Frasier are more in your face. No analysis required to notice them.

 

Agreed but that is still factually incorrect. If 1/5th of jokes had the same structure, I wouldn't be watching, period.

Haven't seen that show since it first aired so I'll trust your much more recent memories in that regard. Regardless, it doesn't matter to me how other shows did it. Only that in this case (and Cheers), this was the strategy. It was quite deliberate. Writer Ken Levine has a blog about his writing career filled with anecdotes about his days on Cheers, Frasier, Wings, Becker, and a slew of others. I invite you to read it if you ever want some context for this sort of thing. Clearly, you disagree with the way they did things. Don't kill the messenger ; only relaying what I've read. I wasn't in the writing room but what Levine mentioned made sense and I still think it does.

Personally, I enjoyed the immediate change in tone when a character like Lilith would come onto the scene. Maybe it was too abrupt to your liking. It didn't seem forced to me as the character is the character. Lilith is a snide sarcastic pretentious know-it-all with a passive aggressive (and sometimes plain aggressive) attitude. Very different from other characters so I'd hope to hear a change in how she expresses herself in contrast to others and how, the character being the dominating type, she'd want to take control of the room the moment she enters it.

 

I think there was a substantial difference between Vera and Maris.

On Cheers, Norm is a bad husband, admittedly so. We didn't ever see Vera, but no one else on the show did either. We can pretty much assume there is another side to everything Norm says about Vera. Plus Norm is no prize either. So it's believable that a real Vera actually exists.

Maris on the other hand had to be a monster to justify Niles thing for Daphne. She couldn't have been shown because any actress would have been more sympathetic than the unseen monster the show created. The concept was far better executed on Cheers than Frasier IMO.

 

Well, I don't think we are likely to see eye-to-eye on this show. Next time I watch through it again I will keep the points made in mind. It might help me appreciate it a bit more. Like I said, I'm definitely a fan, even with my quibbles. The fact I plan to watch it from start to end a second time says a lot I think. I think for me there is something comforting about spending time with the characters that shows such as Seinfeld and Friends never quite achieved, and I do think that is down to the fact that there is more depth with Frasier.

 

This is why it was hard to understand Niles' reluctance to leave Maris. He would keep running back to her and it was difficult to understand given how terrible she sounded.

Vera, on the other hand, it's just how some marriages go in reality. With Norm I always sensed he was exaggerating a bit. There was always a bit of a "kidding around" vibe with his comments. And deep down it felt like he loved his wife, at least on some level. And I think there was an episode where that was actually highlighted, but it's been so long since I've watched Cheers that I forget the details.

Even with Al Bundy, you got the sense he loved his family (on some level). Niles and Maris? Nothing at all felt authentic about that relationship, in large part because Maris just wasn't real at all.

 

I tried binge watching the show recently, gave up after a season or two. The show took a while to get its stride, then became too formulaic quickly.

 

Battered wife syndrome is the same way. Makes no sense but the victim is comfortable in their misery which is less frightening than the unknown. Niles was the same way. Wasn't difficult to understand where he was coming from. We later on got to see how difficult it was when he did not have her money to fall back on and he was forced to live in a lower-class dwelling for a while.

 

Frasier is one of my all-time favorite comedies. I loved the writing, which rarely got vulgar, but was still funny, the characters and their chemistry. I don't think a show needs to be influential in order to be good. Since it was on for 11 seasons, they must have done something right! I have the complete DVD set and still enjoy watching favorite episodes. (The one in which Frasier brings the new station manager home to meet Daphne...and he thinks he's on a date with Frasier, was just hilarious!)

 

My friend's teenage was lamenting Friends being taken off Netflix. She and other teenage friends watch it all the time. She said "I love the 90's".

 

Do they get offended since the show wasn't PC enough?