Why I'm taking the Mcintosh back...

I'd like to get some opinions on my present situation, a situation that is somewhat surprising to me!

Tomorrow I'll be returning a newly purchased beautiful amp and exchanging it for something else, something I can live with.

My system for the last 15 years:

Sumo Polaris amp, 100 wpc.
Sumo Athena pre
Rogersound Labs Speakers (Calif. company that went belly up years ago)

VPI HW 19 MK 3 table, SME 309 arm, Grado Reference "Sonata" cart
Nakamichi CD Player 2 (the one with the "Music Bank" changer), using digital out to...
Musical Fidelity X-24K DA converter, gave the Nak a second life!

Recently purchased:
Toshiba SD 2200 DVD, plays HDCD, no DVD-A
Sony 775 SACD/CD replaced the Nak cd player
Paradigm Studio 100 loudspeakers, (replaces the Rogersound Labs, the most satisfying audio purchase I have made in a long long time!)

Ok, so here's how this has played out.

A few months ago, I bought the Paradigm speakers, they blew my mind, they are tons of fun. They do work with 100 watts, but these things are power sponges, my Sumo 100-watt amp was starting to melt, it was obviously time to buy a new amp. I brought home a McIntosh MC206. This is a six channel, 200 watt per channel amp that I figured would obviously work with my audio two channel system as well as a (future) surround sound set up. Not cheap, I paid around $4300 for this amp, but you know, the McIntosh name means a lot. Well, as Mac people know, you've got those beautiful meters there on the front of the amp, and I had those things close to pinned at 200 plus watts most of the time, the clipping protection was prominently used, (thank you McIntosh!) but I definitely could have used more power for the Paradigms.

Anyhow, I listened, listened, listened to this McIntosh amp, and I just can't live with it. The reason is that there is something missing in the upper mid-range that really makes the music come alive for me. I play drums, and this is something around the frequency that a ride cymbal lives at, and something where the electric guitar sometimes has that "crunch", the thing that makes you want to dance or clap your hands. I hear all that with my old 100-watt Sumo amp, but the 200-watt McIntosh doesn't get that. To be fair, the Mac IS a better amp in almost every other way; sound stage is awesome, bass is almost effortless, build quality on a Mac is second to none. It's just missing something in the detail...

Now I've heard that people either love or hate McIntosh, and I can see both sides of that cloud, but I'd like to hear from Mac fans and tell me what it is that I'm NOT hearing, and why they like that particular sound. Again, this is a sound centered around the ride cymbal in a drum kit, something that makes the whole sound picture sit down, rather than get up and dance. And this is something I definitely DO hear from other amps, something that I know IS on a specific recordings. A couple of specific recordings I auditioned: Radiohead "Fake Plastic Trees" (listen for the entrance of the drums) and Elton John's "Someone Saved My Life Tonight" (original MCA cd issue from many years ago, seems pretty flat). Anyhow, both of these are really subdued on the McIntosh amp, they come alive on my old Sumo.

Tomorrow I'm going to take back the Mac and listen to a Rotel 1090 380wpc 2 channel amp at less than half the price. I definitely need more power, I hope the Rotel is a bit more "fun".

Any thoughts?

Michael Nelson

 

check out the big adcom (don't know the number off hand). their amps produce a lot of punch and are not real expensive.

renny

p.s. my best friend has a macintosh, and i have never been impressed with it. it is supposed to be 100 watts, but it just doesn't have any "punch".

 

I think this is the one Renny is talking about:http://www.adcom.com/amplifiers/gfa5802.htm

 

joseph,

that is the one! micael, if there is an adcom dealer near you, i'd suggest giving this one a test.

renny

 

mne563,
So the missing component is so pronounced that you don't think it could be a break-in issue right?

Have you considered Audio Research? I know someone selling the VT200xx at half price.

 

Just a hunch, but you just may not prefer the "tubey" sound of Macs. Some people do prefer the "harder" sound of other brands - and what hardens sound is the upper mid/lower treble range. Has to do with your own preferences and the speakers you're using.

My own Legacy speakers are not "warm," so my Mac amp is a good match. If I got Bryston, I think the sound would be too "hard," but you may not think so in your system. That would be another brand to check out. Great warranty, good build quality - but it sure doesn't look like a Mac. Customer service, like McIntosh, is first-rate from what I hear.

 

So which model of RSLs did you own. I used to have a pair of "MAXes" . Rsl was a good company in the seventies. One time someone put their finger through my tweeter dome a a party I had and RSL replaced the driver for free!!!!

 

I agree with Casino. The Mac amps have a softer sound and I couldn't begin to explain why. I've seen the inside of many of their amps (incl. mc206) and they use several unique designs.

I enjoy all of the "good" qualities you mentioned about the mc206 in my mc202. I know of the good, hard, crunch sound you're seeking, and I agree, the Mac probably doesn't have it.

Look into Krell. Their Showcase series has the guts and the raw, powerful sound you're after.

 

mne563,

This may be more what you're after to make those speakers sing.
http://www.classeaudio.com/Poweramp CA+CAMs/PowerCA201.html

 

Lol, Steve! Hey, some folks like the harder edge of things. Count me in with those needing a soft, warm sound

 

Michael,

Don't shoot me but here's another possiblity or two. Maybe keep the amp and switch the speakers?? The Paradigm 100's are beautiful but they are pretty power hungry (kind of limits things). Maybe you can find another "great" speaker thats a bit more efficient? Another idea is return the amp and the speakers and kind of go 50-50 on amp and speakers. Maybe find a pair of speakers and amp in the $3000 level each?? Only some other suggestions....

 

What I ended up with...

The McIntosh amp I bought and returned was a MC206, a 6-month old store demo, nicely broken in. It was an awesome amp, did everything right except make a ride cymbal sound like a real ride cymbal. I heard a similar loss at the "crunch" of electric guitar.

Just to be sure, I listened to other Macs today, including an all-tube Mac system (MC2102 amp with a McIntosh tube C2200 preamp, MVP841 CD/DVD. Speakers were (I think) B&W something or other (sorry!) and that whole system was priced at $32,000. And guess what, it still lacked that energy around the ride cymbal. I believe this is a McIntosh philosophy, not necessarily wrong, just not what I like. I was so impressed with the quality of McIntosh products, everything felt good about it, but I knew that laid-back frequency would always bother me.

I listened to more amps as well:

First one out was a Mark Levinson 350-wpc dual mono, this thing was very very musical, maybe a slight bit too airy, priced at $10,000. The salesman said I could have the store demo for $6500. As nice as that amp sounded, I really don't think my wife would have supported me on that choice! The McIntosh 206 I originally bought was over $4000, and it took me a while to tell my wife what that cost. Thank god for booze.

Next up was the Mac combo I mentioned above, as well as the McIntosth MC202, almost a 2-channel version of what I took home previously. Same laid back sound at that ride cymbal frequency. They are consistant!

OK, now what I ended up with may be a bit of a surprise; I bought a Rotel 1090, 380-watt per stereo amp. Now this is not a super high-end amp, but it was LOUD and sounds BIG, which was necessary for the Paradigm Studio 100's (power sponges). Compared to the other amps, (especially the Levinson), the Rotel lacks a bit in the soundstage area, but it was half the price of the Mac 206, and one fifth of the cost of the Levinson, which I did like.

I'm in the breaking in stage with the Rotel, but I think it's a good match for the Paradigms and a good match for me; big room, I have lots of old vinyl, love most anything loud except for opera.

Anyone else had experience with Rotel?

Michael

 

Re: Re: Why I'm taking the Mcintosh back...

My RSL's (still keepin' em) are the Elan's. RSL (made in beautiful downtown Canoga Park) did a nice home made job with their stuff, REAL wood cabinets, not too expensive and they sounded pretty good for what I could afford at the time. Rogersound Labs also replaced (both) of the woofers at one point, 'cause one had developed a buzz of some sort. I think I paid about $700 for them, and they still work well. I might use them for rear surrounds at some point, or at least as a second system in the bedroom. (You know, background music for sex sessions! I just hope my wife doesn't walk in on me.... )

Michael

 

Nobody loves a crunchy string quartet like me!

Seriously though, what I'm talking about isn't "built in" to the speakers or amp, it's something that's in a particular recording that was missing from the McIntosh for me.

If we're talking about a string quartet, the Mac would be lacking in the area where the rosined bow is rubbing the strings, you know, that sound that makes it sound real, not like a record. If it's there, I want to hear it, not remember what it sounded like when I heard it on a different system. The McIntosh amp had awesome bass, good sound stage, sounded very strong, but that ride cymbal (best example I can think of) just fell way in back of everything else, I think falsely so. And a guitar power chord should sound like a power chord.

Think of one of your favorite old tunes that makes you want to clap your hands with the music or dance to the music or makes you lean forward a little in your chair. That's what I want to hear, it's definitely something already there on some (not all) recordings. Because I sometimes listen at a "realistic" and or loud volume, there's no room for artificial upper mid boost, I don't like that, can't stand it.

And no, I can't pretend that the amp I ended up with is really "neutral" sounding, it's always a compromise in some way. (We'll never settle that "neutral sound" argument anyhow; but this works for me. And as Steve Earle would say "you know the rest!")

Michael

 

Why, I ougtta shoot you for suggesting such a thing!

Your ideas are good Todd, there's a lot of different ways to work these components together. As you know, it's actually possible to research audio gear to the point of making it a profession, but at some point I just wanted to take something home and listen to music, and be happy. I wasn't out to create a reference system, just one that sounded good to me, and I think I've succeeded. With audio equipment, that doesn't always happen!

The Paradims are gonna stay; I love them, they sound perfect for what I like. I did end up with a much more powerful amp (380 wpc Rotel), which is really what these speakers need, they really soak it up. No it's not as good as the McIntosh in many ways, but it does what I want it to!

BTW, cost on the amp I ended up with was about $2100, speakers were about $2300, so pretty close to 50-50 on amp/speakers cost.

Michael

 

Congrats, Michael. May you have countless hours of musical enjoyment.
No matter what we all say all that counts is that you can enjoy the music.
There is nothing worse than having some aspect of the sound constantly drawing attention to itself. By the way, from what I've read the Rotel is an extremely good power amp with a very high value to cost ratio.

 

Razor blades! (I think Sam and I will stick with our MC202's).