Why is my vinyl superior to my CD's?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Donald Burger, Mar 30, 2020.

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  1. Cosmic_Displacer

    Cosmic_Displacer Member

    Location:
    66049
    Step a) Ditch CD player
    Step b) Get un-botched FLAC
    Step c) Get a Topping D90 DAC
    TOPPING D90 DAC (Digital-to-Analog Converter)
    Step d) Prepare to get jaw dropped by digital!
    Step e) Prepare to be completely let down with what you hear from vinyl!

    But, if vinyl has seeped deep into the crevices of your mind over many decades and you can't let go (a.k.a that nostalgia is simply too much),

    Step f) Connect a good tube amp (pushpull or SET) to the Topping D90 DAC. You will feel like that vinyl "magic" is still with ya! But, it will be way more "magical" than your turntable/vinyl collection ever was/is/or forever will be.

    SET
    REISONG Boyuu A50 MKII 300B tube hifi intergrated amp Single-end Class A : China-hifi-Audio online store, Yaqin,Meixing Mingda,XiangSheng,Line Magnetic Tube Amplifier, power amp, preamp,hi-fi CD Player high end audio for sale [MUIA9831347] - $479.11 USD

    push/pull
    REISONG Boyuu MT-88 KT88*4 tube amp Push-pull Hi-Fi audio amplifier new : China-hifi-Audio online store, Yaqin,Meixing Mingda,XiangSheng,Line Magnetic Tube Amplifier, power amp, preamp,hi-fi CD Player high end audio for sale [MUIA9831303] - $499.03 USD


    I still have my turntable and a couple of thousand records for parties/easy listening. But, digital's how i roll for serious listening!
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
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  2. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Yes
     
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  3. AudioAddict

    AudioAddict Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Here's a technical explanation:
    The vinyl medium offers two types of reproduction advantages: real and artificial. Let's call these two “Real Goodness” and artificial, or “Fishy Goodness.”
    Real Goodness comes from a record's ability to reproduce waveform integrity. The pressure ups and downs of the wave are reproduced as accurately as does the master source and avoids the slicing and slithering used in creating CDs (= PCM). For the best Real Goodness, the master should be analog tape.
    Waveform integrity produces a natural and pleasing sound that possesses timbral accuracy, accurate transients (= attacks), and expressive microdynamics (subtle shades of volume). Its the only real advantage records have over CDs, but it is a big, big one.
    Fishy Goodness comes from mid-range boost and compression – two characteristics of record design and execution.
    Vinyl has a limited dynamic range (less than 50db) and, so, masters must be compressed so the softest and loudest passages fall within this range. This creates a “toe-tapping” result because the bass, for example, has to be always a certain loudness to fit within the range and it will get your system moving.
    Vinyl also requires EQ, standardized years ago by the RIAA. In most cases, this produces a mid-range boost to the sound that the ear hears and enjoys as “Presence” – the performer sounds close to you.
    Fishy Goodness, being an artificial creation, can be applied to CDs as well – but most audio engineers from the 80s onwards eschewed this artificial design and considered it old fashioned.
    For a good example of a “Fishy” CD, listen to the Rhino Replica CD of Coltrane's Giant Steps. This CD took the original master analog tape over exactly, preserving the Fishy Goodness of the original analog recording.
    Guess what?
    It sounds very much like vinyl...and so do many of the ADD CD releases that were looked down upon for many years.
    Real and Fishy Goodness sound powerful indeed when the master source is analog (= tape). It is selling a lot of the $4k turntables these days.
     
  4. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy

    @jtw, for some reason I’ve heard a number of remasters where the stereo field has been narrowed. No idea why an engineer would want to do that...perhaps to sound better with headphones.
     
  5. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Could be, sometimes a narrower field meshes things together more pleasantly, some may attribute it as a warm texture sound, while a spread out field is more analytical and colder in a way. Usually I prefer the spread out soundstage however.
     
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  6. William Bryant

    William Bryant Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nampa, Idaho
    Finally we have a new topic no one has ever brought up before! :-popcorn:
     
  7. jtw

    jtw Forum Resident

    Yeah! I know that someone makes a device that will allow a person to adjust the amount of cross-feed between digital channels. Can't remember who, but it was targeted at headphone users to try to get the sound outside of one's head (according to them).
     
  8. Synthfreek

    Synthfreek I’m a ray of sunshine & bastion of positivity

    A simple solution would have been for him/her to write that in the thread title. I mean, everyone has to know by now that a ton of people here don't read the OP and just jump to the end and post based on what the thread title says.
     
  9. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Vinyl will suck on cheap turntable. CD will suck on cheap CD player/DAC. My experience is vinyl sounds better but I spent more on playback. CD certainly sounds a bit lacking in soundstage depth and even width with a lot of players. However it is not only new expensive players that sound good. I have had good results reviving an old Marantz player with 1541A chip set. Of today's players look for a player or DAC (with transport) that has a Sabre 9038 pro dac. People also report great results with ladder Dacs. I've been unimpressed with some very expensive players heard at shows however, so spending more than a relatively modest amount (several thousand £ rather than tens of thousands) is not necessarily worth it with digital. Turntables do tend to produce better sound up to say £20-30K at least. Also CD mastering is an art which has rarely been performed to audiophile standards. Vinyl masters transferred to early CDs and brickwalling dominant in the last 20 years. For this reason alone vinyl records generally sound better.
     
  10. It certainly can. During mastering, the channels can be pulled in or out, and done so at different frequencies. For example, it used to be that during LP mastering, bass was summed to mono.

    Another practice—this time, used on some CD’s—was to apply digital noise reduction to reduce tape hiss. Unfortunately, this practice also tended to remove reverb trails, room sound, and “air” from recordings, greatly compromising the soundstage.

    Finally, aggressive limiting during mastering can make everything sound the same volume, reducing dynamic range which in turn affects the soundstage, making everything sound flat and dead. It can even make the stereo image appear smaller since things like reverb trails are made louder. When reverb trails are softer, they communicate a feeling of greater distance (things farther away are lower in volume), and a greater depth to the soundstage. When reverb is louder and “in your face,” it no longer sounds real and instead of communicating depth, it just sounds like a sound effect.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
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  11. thegage

    thegage Forum Currency Nerd

    If my record player could sound sterile, harsh, and uninvolving, maybe it would sound just as good as CD.

    (Unfortunately the forum has no sarcasm font.)

    JohnK
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
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  12. 911s55

    911s55 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wa state
    Here is a post from Audiokarma that I agree with very much, the early Denon DCD and Philips/Magnavox players are easy to listen to as are a few others with these op-amps. I prefer my vinyl and CD playback to sound like the belong in the same system, not worlds apart tonally.



    My preference in vintage CDP's tends to favor Philips/Magnavox/Marantz (et-al) TDA1541 equipped players w/CDM swing arm transports.
    IMO they are the best all around vintage CDP's, usually priced reasonably nice smooth analog sound w/extremely reliable transports.

    But I've also been known to take a couple of the better BB/PCM equipped CDP's into the fold despite the less reliable Sony KSS transports (lasers).
    Of the BB/PCM CDP's I usually look for units w/the PCM56,PCM58,PCM61 ~ PCM63,PCM64,PCM65 -or- PCM1701/1702/1704 DACs in them.

    There are some good resources out there to help one sort the better players from the so-so players, as even in a given brand there are hits & misses.

    This is one of the better resources IMHO >>>> DutchAudioClassics.nl - Watch our large collection of photos and information of classic Marantz & Philips cd-players
     
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  13. jtw

    jtw Forum Resident

    I'll be. I would have thought that all of the soundstage presentation would have been achieved in the mixing. Want to make a guesstimate on what percent is attributed to mixing and what percent to mastering?
     
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  14. bluesky

    bluesky Senior Member

    Location:
    south florida, usa
    It's my understanding (from what I have read) that digital and analog are mastered very differently. Analog mastering is a much more difficult & a much longer process than digital. Digital is a quicker process, not so much changed (I guess), IE more accurate.

    I prefer LPs. Analog mastering technique is great for sound/feeling. Also analogue must be mastered to keep the stylus in the groove, but in the complete process accuracy is diminished but it sounds/feels better. Play LPs all night - 6 hrs, no problem.

    CDs are much more 'accurate' but lack the analog mastered feeling. But some CDs do sound outrageous. CDs do kinda wear my mind out after a few discs.

    Just pick the best sounding 'album' to you, be it LP or CD. Done deal.

    NAD CD players sound pretty nice. I use a 2010 NAD. that I bought new, and am quite happy with it. Much better than the 80s Denon or Sony that I had (bought new).
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
  15. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    Vinyl sounds direct and pure.
    In many cases if records are old
    No compression or reverb means
    A far more natural sound
     
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  16. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    I dunno about that. Depends on the experience of the engineer, how they master, what kind of project the tackle. Vinyl has more limitations when it comes to mastering though so more things to pay attention to, but I dont know if it takes longer because of that. The phsyical aspect of cutting the disc takes longer than processing files sure.
     
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  17. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Less compression that the average CD sure, but a lot of original pressings roll of frequencies of inner groove tracks. I find modern pressings to be less rolled off in this sense, maybe because I mostly buy well produced vinyl.
     
  18. FalseMetal666

    FalseMetal666 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    This is a great explanation of something I’ve not really understood. Makes a lot of sense and makes me want to track down a used Cambridge Audio transport and a nice DAC. Ugh.
     
  19. bluesky

    bluesky Senior Member

    Location:
    south florida, usa
    Sounds good to me. :righton:
     
  20. AudioAddict

    AudioAddict Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    FalseMetal666:
    For the DAC look at the RME ADI-2; this company knows more about conversion than anyone and they are studio standard, just recently moved into home equipment.
    The thread has raised the question of Soundstage. It's a complicated topic and cannot provide a fuller explanation here but have tuned my systems so they accurately portray orchestral textures (most demanding soundstages) and can tell you that CDs are markedly better than Vinyl in this regard. If you want the best vinyl soundstage you have to go to a very quiet turntable and a high end MC cartridge; this is widely stated.
     
  21. FalseMetal666

    FalseMetal666 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    I'll have a look at RME's stuff - I remember hearing their name discussed among by studio pro acquaintances, but wasn't aware they had broken into the home audio game.
     
  22. xfilian

    xfilian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex, UK
    Yes, you were. Its ok. Millions of people - myself included - were duped.
     
  23. fried

    fried Forum Resident

    Location:
    Paris
    What a load of guff.
     
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  24. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    If you want the full sound of Vinyl but the convenience and consistency of CD then do two things.

    1.Get a NOS (Non-Oversampling) DAC

    2.Seek out older/original CD masterings with high dynamic range (12 or above)
     
  25. elvisizer

    elvisizer Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Jose
    There are so many variables with sacd playback, too, that it’s hard to draw any significant knowledge from listening to a friend’s system.
    My sacd’s sound great on my actual listening rig but pretty meh in my living room system because the living room’s acoustics kind of suck and I can’t do room correction in dsd.
     
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