why were there so many fold-down mono mixes of the 60s Rolling Stone Songs

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Slipperman87, Dec 14, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Slipperman87

    Slipperman87 Active Member Thread Starter

    the chess tracks from 64, The US Mono Aftermath, Mono Beggar's Banquet, Mono Let It Be. What is the story to this?
     
  2. tages

    tages Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I'd like to know why there are so many fold-down mono mixes on the "Singles Collection"! That comp could have been amazing (especially the SACD version). What A Shame, indeed.
     
  3. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff

    Location:
    NY
    IIRC, the SACD version, with the exception of less than a handful (Heart of Stone being one) uses the actual mono mix, whereas the original ABKCO release of the "The Singles Collection: The London Years" by The Rolling Stones used many fold-ins.

    Feel free to start a new thread on that topic, let's get back to the OPs original post before this derails.
    AFAIK, Beggars is a fold-in with the exception of Sympathy For The Devil, and of course you meant "Let It Bleed" which is a fold-in, but there are others here who can report and support the facts.
     
  4. Slipperman87

    Slipperman87 Active Member Thread Starter

  5. Slipperman87

    Slipperman87 Active Member Thread Starter

    the question that is really eating at me is why the US mono version of Aftermath was a fold down
     
  6. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Wow, I didn't know it was. I have one but I've never played it in over 40 years.

    Who said if was a fold?

    Lukpac knows all about Stones records, PM him..
     
  7. Slipperman87

    Slipperman87 Active Member Thread Starter

    many people that I have responded in previous threads have said that Aftermath US mono was a fold down. They say Paint It Black doesn't have traits that are common in the mono single
     
  8. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Remember, PAINT IT BLACK wasn't on Aftermath in the UK. Is it possible that the rest of the songs are true mono and just PAINT is a fold?

    I have a UK Aftermath mono that sounds good and I have the 45 of PAINT IT BLACK that sounds good (for RCA-Victor recording, that is)..

    I know nothing 'bout old Stones stuff, except that most of the USA records stink-o.
     
  9. MikeP5877

    MikeP5877 V/VIII/MCMLXXVII

    Location:
    OH
    One USA mono that isn't stink-o is TSMR - I think it was said that the UK mono album was a fold down, but the US is definitely a dedicated mono mix.
     
  10. Yardbird

    Yardbird Forum Resident

    What is a fold down?
     
  11. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    You take a stereo mix and combine the channels L+R to make mono. This throws the mix out of whack because whatever music information is in the left or right channel goes down 3 db while what is in the center stays at the same volume.

    Your mix goes to hell.

    Imagine a song that the music track is on the left and the horns are on the right and there is singing in the center. When you combine the channels (or "fold" them into each other) the crucial music drops in volume leaving the singer out there with his weenie in the wind. Bad news.

    We HATE fold downs for the most part. The major labels never did them in the old days, they made a dedicated stereo mix and a dedicated mono mix for cutting records. Sometimes, if in a hurry or just lazy, a company used a stereo mix to make mono records. Yucky.
     
  12. Yardbird

    Yardbird Forum Resident



    Wow! Thanks for the explanation.
     
  13. Slipperman87

    Slipperman87 Active Member Thread Starter

    The US mono version of Help! was a fold-down too. How did that happen for something as high profile as the Beatles?
     
  14. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Possibly there was a time constraint for the US release and perhaps EMI made a stereo dub of the stereo stuff and sent it to Capitol, USA first. Capitol got it and couldn't wait for the mono dub mixes so they just folded the stereo down. Thing is, once marked "master" they used that sucking tape to do recut after recut even though they had the real mono tapes by that time..

    The good thing for us is that Union studios always did a dedicated mono mix and a dedicated stereo mix. It was rare that something was messed up like HELP! until the very end of the mono era (1967-68) when companies started using whatever they had around for their last mono mastering. End of an era. Too bad because those Beatles mono mixes kick butt..
     
  15. Slipperman87

    Slipperman87 Active Member Thread Starter

  16. Yardbird

    Yardbird Forum Resident

    When they made a dedicated stereo mix and a dedicated mono mix were they made simultaneously during the same recording session?
     
  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Sometimes, but usually no. Usually the important mono was done first. The stereo, later, sometimes YEARS later. Sometimes by a different mixing engineer who had never heard the mono version before. Sometimes the stereo or mono might have a different vocal channel or instrument solo and more or less reverb than the other version. A whole bunch of stuff could be different about the mixes.

    That's why record collectors love both stereo and mono mixes. They are sometimes REALLY different from each other!
     
  18. Yardbird

    Yardbird Forum Resident



    Thanks!

    Now these discussions regarding mono vs stereo make a lot more sense.
    I had always thought that they were the same with the exception of breaking the music out from one to two channels. I didn't think the artist would record the songs twice.

    If not mistaken, 45s were usually released in mono. If that premise is accurate, is it correct to assume that most music was recorded in mono first and then stereo later?
     
  19. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Your terminology is off.

    Music in the Rock & Roll era was recorded on Multi-track tape. Then a mono version was MIXED and a stereo version was MIXED. The song wasn't recorded in either, it was recorded in Multi-track.:)

    A band, when making a record destined for 45 RPM release would mix the mono version first. If the record was a hit maybe they would go back and record an album. If so, the album would be mixed into mono and stereo close to the same time.

    A band like the Yardbirds only had mono mixes made of the good stuff and that's all. USA companies wanting to make an extra buck would take these mono tapes and redub them with fake stereo effect so they could issue them in "stereo" and charge a dollar more. Hate 'em.
     
  20. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Maybe sometimes. But who has ever complained about, say, It's All Over Now in mono, other than about the fact that it wasn't stereo?

    Tangent, but I'd kill to hear all of the various RCA stage tapes. Maybe 4 or 5 generations for The Last Time?
     
  21. Yardbird

    Yardbird Forum Resident

    Steve - thanks for the explanation! It's very helpful and informative. Greatly appreciated!!!
     
  22. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Well, since there wasn't a dedicated mono mix of IT'S ALL OVER NOW (that survives) we have no idea what it might have sounded like. It could have ruled the world for all we know. All we have in mono is the stereo version, channels combined with extra compression to keep the center vocal down in the mix. Sounds OK but who knows what might have been?

    Sometimes I dream about the RCA-Victor Studio stage tapes. Imagine hearing the Stones music BEFORE that wicked 5k filter destroyed the entire top end on all of our favorite Rolling Stone songs?
     
  23. I don't have a US mono AFTERMATH LP to check, but on the UK Decca mono LP of AFTERMATH there's a verbal "grunt" sound heard in the piano introduction that's missing on the stereo. If someone has a US mono LP maybe they could check if they hear it. That would be an easy way to determine if it's a fold-down or not.
     
  24. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    The majority of Stones mono fold downs in the opening post are really not that unusual - considering it was 1968 - '69, by which point dedicated (true) mono was for all practical purposes, dead.

    I collect their UK albums, Decca was still mono-centric up to 1968/Beggars Banquet. Its the pre-Aftermath stereo mixes that people seem to love finding & collecting. I know many singles were made in mono after 1969, but even those were escalating as fold downs.
     
  25. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Not that memories can't be wrong/clouded, but Ron Malo has stated that the mono "mixes" were just fold downs. Also, the sheet for the 5x5 EP specifically says "STEREO" with "COMPATIBLE MONO" under it. Seems to back up that theory.

    Which song? Flight 505? There's a grunt at 0:08 in stereo...
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine