My Ortofon 2M Black is approaching replacement time. I really like the refinement that the Shibata stylus offers and don't mid adjusting VTA/SRA etc.. The Black has very fast, open and dynamic sound that I absolutely love. However it does reveal even the tiniest flaws in the vinyl which can be frustrating. I've read good things about the Audio Technical VM750SH and wondering about the sound. Would it be a downgrade from the 2M Black ?
Hi, I would say at under half the price of the Black, yes you will be disappointed. At it's price point the AT is a great cart. But the Black performs way above it's price point.!! Why not buy a Ortofon OM30 stylus & put it on the Black body. Yes the do fit, infact the carts inners is identical, Ort just but a new outer shell & doubled the price!! The OM30 has a Nude Fine Line stylus, so will be quieter in the groove than the Black. Cheers
I prefer the VM750ML to the 2M Black... Less harsh on the highs, much less surface noise, and better tracking. But it's no mystery that even in the Ortofon range I prefer the Bronze to the Black.
Experienced both Black: exciting and dynamic, punchy sound, not as good with handling punishing inner grooves and sibilance, surface noise a bit more prominent, high gain. AT 750, very clear, open, superlative inner groove and sibilance handling, like most AT carts I used, you feel that you can trust the cart, if that makes any sense, you-install it and forget about it, to me it sounds like exceptional Hi Rez Digital or cd. that is not a dig, I have more cd's than vinyl. If your'e finicky about surface noise and inner groove etc, then I would recommend the AT, I personally enjoyed the sound of the black more that the AT, but that's me.
I don't have the VM750SH but I do own the VM540ML and the ART9XI as well as the 2M Black. I think the 2M Black has a very distinctive sound with that fast open dynamic bass heavy but very detailed sound that is almost like adding contrast and saturation to music. My biggest issue with the 2M Black is I get quite a bit of sibilance on certain recordings. None of my other cartridges really sound like the 2M Black. Personally, I'm not sure I like it. Sometimes the 2M Black seems a little much, but if you do I think you should simply replace it or find a low hours 2M Black used which is what I did. The VM540ML is a very middle of the road sound, quite balanced but with a touch of magic. The ART9XI is like that but on steroids. The ART9XI is exceptionally transparent and detailed with fantastic balance and a lack of coloration while still improving dynamics, clarity, space and contrast. FWIW
Thanks everyone for your inputs. My biggest issue with the Black is the intolerance of vinyl imperfections. I don't have any issues with sibilance or IGD. That being said it is hypersensitive to VTA/SRA and I have to frequently tweak the VTA to remove a bit of the edginess. Once the optimum VTA is found for a given record there is no distortion whatsoever and inner groove tracking is amazing (my VPI protractor does tend to favour minimizing error in the inner grooves) Based on everyone's feedback I'm likely going to stay with the 2M Black. (but open to further opinions)
Part of the difference is the V output. Black is pretty high, and that contributes to your perception that it highlights flaws.
Not sure I follow your reasoning, wouldn't everything be higher output? Why would it highlight the flaws, assuming the phono preamp isn't being overloaded?
Isn't being overloaded? It's just my experience. The higher output MMs I've had seemed to bring up the surface noise. Now that may well be a symptom of being less able to get the incremental volume adjustment needed on the whole system, which is more to your point. Azimuth could also be in play. Now that I can make small adjustments, I'm pretty amazed at how pops and surface noise are reduced.
Theoretically, the Shibata stylus, if fitted correctly, should handle the inner groove better than even a fine-line elliptical. And I had an Ortofon with a Shibata stylus, and that was the case. There was greater ease at the inside groove of the record. But I found it brighter, too. The highs were more pronounced. Overall, I do prefer the sound of a fine-line.
All the Audio Technica carts i used had incredible tracking, MM and MC, my AT95SH tracks inner grooves and handles sibilance better than my cadenza blue, and I'm obsessive about set up, but I also find them slightly flat sounding and boring, not dull sounding but just not emotionally engaging, I would one day if funds permit would like to try the ART 20.
Actually, no one would know but you. I believe you should try it for yourself and go from there. I have a 750SH and a 740ML one of the two should provide what you want. Also, if you can snag one try a Goldring GL 2500. Just to be transparent I've never heard a Black. M~
Honestly, at this level of cartridge matched with many of the TT's out there, anyone of these has the potential to deliver above average sonics --- assuming it's at least marginally matched to what you're running it on. We're starting from a place of two excellent catridges.... trying to find "most" excellent.... I've seen comparisons here of things like the XML vs 9iii in the OC9 class, the other day someone contrasting their new 33PTGii vs an EV33.... the excitement of liking a new cartridge sometimes gets a little over done on comparison. I've tried all four carts just mentioned, in fact three of them are mounted right now... and there's something to like about every one of them. They're all really good and picking one would be tough. I know, that's no fun.... gotta be a winner and a loser or it's throwaway input.
Interesting. I've never focussed on how azimuth affects sensitivity to noise. I've focussed more on the sound when adjusting azimuth. Geometrically speaking I would have thought that perfect azimuth alignment would have the greatest chance of hi-lighting flaws. This being due to the fact that perfect azimuth means the tip of the stylus gets as close as possible to the bottom of the groove - and more likely to pick up any defects/dirt that may be down there. Or is there something else going on here ?
If you're talking about a line contact (which these are) then keep thinking that. You're on the right track. I pay extra attention to azimuth when mounting a line contact. I always pay attention no matter the type but tiny errors in mounting a conical will have less deleterious effect than the same error on a line contact.
You've summarized my situation. I Enjoy certain qualities of all my cartridges.... My 2M Black sounds amazing with Jazz and Classical. Clear winner in this category. However with monophonic vocals and Piano there are certain qualities of my Benz Ace MONO that I really like. But overall this is one cartridge that doesn't get as much use. I generally prefer my Shure V15 IV (MR) for vintage vinyl pop and rock. Unfortunately it's mounted on a different TT and running through a different phono stage. Might move it over to my prime TT / phono stage to see what it can really do.
My thought is that if it's off, you favor one side. That's how I started looking at it. I was noticing a small channel imbalance. I recently got a microscope, and I knew I could adjust azimuth, so I took a look and noted that the end of the cantilever was angled. Anyway, that adjustment really reduced surface noise and pops. That's with a Shibata.
So here is one possible explanation... If a misalignment means that the side of the stylus is riding the groove in a region of closer to the top of the groove wall, then it may be more likely is to pick up the small surface scratches.
Depending on your preference, the ML versions of the AT's might out perform the Shibata..and be even cheaper. Probably not out of line to say the $280 540ml is very competitive to the $700 2M Black. But I'm just throwing it out there having never owned the Black so there's that. Try a 540! If you like the Black better you didn't spend too much and it would be a killer second cart.
Exactly What I ended up puzzling over was that non-fill was still there, but much more buried in the sound. Much better. Non fill would be the deepest defect, but as I thought I decided it was the same. Even if the defect is missing info in the bottom of the groove, riding the middle of that mess didn't sound as bad. Shibata is a bit larger than a ML, though, so YMMV.
Just a thought.... The end of your cantilever looks angled BUT the centreline of the stylus looks parallel to the centreline of the cantilever pipe. (EDIT... my eyes are no longer the greatest so maybe the stylus is in fact off angle) That angle on the end of the cantilever could just be from the flattening of the aluminum pipe to attach the stylus tip. Not sure that that is important
Very nice choices and set up! You're preaching to the choir there by the way with choice. I do similar, my primary filter is era of the LP typically as the major driver, there are certain cartridges I use for certain era LP vs another, it's a bigger filter for me than genre. But even within genre, there are of course certain carts I like better than others too. But I bet you go through some similar process since you mentioned the Benz Mono. For instance, I've found nothing I have plays a 1960 jazz stereo press on certain labels better than an Ortofon SPU conical. The Orto SPU conical came out in 1959, about the time of the mono -> stereo switch, and it's like this era stereo was made for this SPU, especially jazz. (because in a way they were, some were testing their pressings on carts like this, conicals were pretty much it back then). Or anything pre-58 (mono, 1 mil groove) gets another cartridge (Ort SPU, or Ort CG25Di). Modern rock? Another table / cart..... Modern LPs get more modern styli typically, but the conicals and ellipticals still work fine. (except the 1 mil carts of course). But I usually don't use a line contact on early stuff. There's a reason I run multiple TT's / cartridges and phono pre's. I get to listen to different systems, on demand, without having to change a cartridge! And to target era / genre to a certain cartridge, which is both fun and fulfilling. Obviously a topic that I enjoy talking about with someone who appreciates variety!
