Would you pay $11,000 or more for speakers if the cabinet was made in China??

Good to see you haven't lost that sense of humor..........

 

Thanks, glad you noticed!

 

Wow... I hope no British read that last sentence.

 

Oh it didn't go under the radar...

 

It's a definite NO from me. I buy products from China, Indonesia etc but only when they are much more affordably priced.

 

I don't have an issue buying a product wherever any of its parts are made - its a question of quality, performance and price!

 

I know this story well. Craig/Theatermax lost his Aerial dealership because of situations where customers would get a price quote on Aerials from Craig, then go to their local dealer who could not match the internet price, and then Craig would try to place the order with Aerial, but Aerial found out that the customer had visited the local dealer and therefore would not allow Craig to sell out of territory. Inevitably the customer would not pay the smaller dealer discount or nondiscount and Aerial lost the sale period! Aerial had to protect its own sales and dealers and thus was forced by Craig to terminate him as a dealer. Yet its almost 2020 and Craig/Theatermax still lists Aerial as a new product he carries on his website even though he lost his Aerial dealership some years ago.

I only discovered this thread, and a closed one at AVS Forum (speakers forum, which I never read, until I was starting my home theater upgrade/renovation this past year), this last May. And at the AVS thread, Craig stated that he lost a sale of five Aerial 7ts to a well known AVS Forum member because Michael Kelly sold direct and made the sale himself. I am that person. Craig was my Theta dealer, etc for many years. He was NEVER my Aerial dealer. I had never obtained any quotes or discussed purchasing Aerials from him. In fact, after I got the 5 7ts in early 2014, Craig was very happy as he was then still an Aerial dealer and this was going to help him make more sales when folks read my posts at AVS Forum about this. I had referred a number of folks to him over the years. When I found all of this out last May, I was absolutely horrified that Craig had falsely used me as an example in his vendetta against Michael Kelly and Aerial Acoustics and I terminated any relationship with him.

My dedicated home theater, built as an addition onto my home in 1996-1997, has been down since August 1 for remodeling and upgrading. Of the 5 Aerial 7ts that I had, I sold the surround pair. My theater when done will have 3 Aerial 7ts floorstanding up front, 6 Aerial 7 LCRs on wall, 13 Triad Silver Rotatable Sat 9s in ceiling, and 9 21" sealed Seaton subwoofers.

I have owned, since 1997, 4 Aerial 10ts, Aerial CC3, Aerial CC5, 3 Aerial SW12 subwoofers, 4 Aerial 9s, 5 Aerial 7ts, and currently as stated above. In 1997, I contacted Michael and he would only sell through dealers, not direct. A friend of mine became a dealer and got me my initial Aerials. A few years later my friend was no longer an Aerial dealer, Ultimate Electronics was selling Aerial, and although I had referred lots of folks to buy Aerials, Michael still would not sell direct, and I bought my CC5 at full retail from Ultimate Electronics as well as my 3rd SW12 subwoofer (UGH!). Michael loosened his policy a bit, as in 2008 I got Aerial 9s from Aerial direct, as there was no Aerial dealer in my geographical area, and Michael told me that I was a "special case" as a good referral source all these years and as there was no local dealer in my geographical area. By this time Craig had been my Theta dealer for several years, but I did not discuss or obtain a quote from him for the Aerial 9s. And when I told him he was quite happy because my posting on AVS Forum regarding this only led to more sales for him. Then in January 2014 I again had no local dealer and Aerial sold me direct 5 7ts - and Craig was again very happy for me and when I posted on AVS Forum about this, he also posted how great the speakers were. I guess sometime in the next year he lost the Aerial dealership. I only found out why Craig lost the Aerial dealership in past months talking to a few Aerial dealers and Michael Kelly.

Since Craig lost his Aerial dealership I assume sometime later in 2014 or 2015 (prior to this thread and the one at AVS Forum being started), he continued being my dealer and audio friend and we talked frequently and I ordered stuff from him. I had no idea he was pissed at me for buying 7ts from Aerial as I had no local or other Aerial dealer (Craig was in New Jersey, then Florida, then back in New Jersey). I had no idea he was involved in these anti-Aerial/anti-China threads at this forum or at AVS Forum, until last May when I discovered these threads. Needless to say, he is no longer my dealer or my audio friend.

 

I wouldn't spend $11k for speakers no matter where they are made.

 

Very strongly . You are not exactly listening to a live band or live orchestra by sitting in front of those speakers ...

 

How did you find the new 7ts compared to the older 10ts, as you have owned both. The model 9 was also a beautiful loudspeaker, and I would think it could top either the 7 or 10, and you have owned that one as well.

It's interesting to see the additional information on Theatermax's difficulties with Aerial Acoustics. You have purchased a tremendous amount from Aerial through the dealer network or direct. As you have purchased so much, have you found that Aerial will allow a nice discount with no dealer involved, as they have no one to cut into margins? What you purchased from Ultimate Electronics at full list price was expensive with no assistance from the dealer on pricing. At the time, you must have known Theatermax would have given you a nice deal on any Aerial purchases, why would you not have considered purchasing those thousands of dollars worth of speakers from them at the time, as they were already your Theta dealer?

 

Actually, I liked the 9s better than the 10ts, and I liked the 7ts appreciably better than the 9s. Frankly, when I got the 7ts, it was Craig on the forum who was saying how great they were and how much better they were than the 9s, how they imaged fantastically, and I read some other reviews as well. I talked to Michael Kelly, and if anything he undersold the 7ts, yes they were an improvement especially in the midrange, but Michael did not try to talk me into changing at all. And I have found the fit and finish of all of Michael's speakers that I have owned second to none.

 

When I met Craig, as I was walking into the Aerial Acoustics demo at CES 2001, I didn't know him. He recognized my name tag, "Steve Bruzonsky AVS Forum" (I moderated the AVS Special Guests Forum, with weekly industry guests answering questions,1999-2003, introduced himself, and told me that he had lots of folks buying Theta Digital and Aerial gear from him after reading my posts at AVS Forum on such gear. He told me if I ever needed a dealer to contact him. When I was moderating, I was actually a beta tester for Theta Digital and getting dealer pricing direct from Theta as a "special case" reviewer - and my prior Theta dealer Esoteric Audio in Scottsdale knew this but didn't complain as he knew I was a "special case" reviewer. After I quit moderating, I contacted Craig and he became my Theta dealer. I bought a few other things from him over the years, too, but never never Aerial Acoustics. He was never my Aerial dealer and he knew that. And over at that closed thread at AVS Forum speakers forum which I first found last May but was opened and closed back 2015-2016 or so, Craig accused Michael Kelly of undercutting his own dealers by selling direct and falsely used me as his one example.

As for what I pay to who, I will simply say that I have paid for everything I have bought. Even when I got reviewer costs from Theta when I was a moderator. I negotiate and get whatever discounts I can just like you do. No need to say more is there? Again, Michael Kelly has made it clear that he will NOT undercut his dealers. He lost sales because Craig gave nice discounted quotes on Aerial speakers to potential buyers who went into local dealers, gave the local dealers the very discounted price quotes, but the dealers either informed Aerial or their location was in the geographic dealer area and Aerial would not give the speakers to Craig to sell to those customers - thus Aerial lost sales as a result.

 

Also, let me add, I've used a number of different dealers over the years. I've been quoted in ads by PS Audio for their P300 and Premier Power Plants, and I've got good deals direct from PS Audio as well in view of this special relationship. I bought my Sim2 C3X projector and Lumagen back then from Mark Haflich. I bought my Sony VPL-VW5000 projector and Lumagen Radiance Pro in 2017 and this year a Kaleidescape system from another dealer. So Litejazz, are you trying to say because I buy one brand from one dealer I am stuck buying from that online dealer? Again, Craig knew he was not my Aerial dealer and he had no business saying otherwise especially to make a false slam against Aerial using me as a false example!

And yea whatever I bought from Craig I got decent deals. But I will not refer or recommend someone who I don't think is honest. Period. Even if I need to pay mor for any products in the future.

 

I would never say anyone is confined in any way to one dealer. In your posts, you were giving the impression that you work with a specific dealer on specific products. You said you had never purchased Aerial Acoustic loudspeakers from Theatermax, however I assumed you might have known that company was offering better deals on Aerial than other dealers anywhere, so it would make sense you might call them and ask for pricing on all of the various speakers you purchased, before you severed doing business with the owner of Theatermax. Speaking for myself, I am personally stuck with any dealer that will work with me on pricing, as through the years, I like to change components, and I have found that if you don't buy it right on the front end, you will suffer when it comes time to sell, as I'm sure you are well aware.

I have always loved Aerial loudspeakers, as I always loved ADS loudspeakers, 710s, 810s and especially the 910s, owned all of them. I still have my pair of Santos Rosewood 10Ts. I bought some Polk LSiM 707s and 703s to play around with, but the Aerial's are #1 in my book. I purchased mine from a dealer here in Nashville, when I lived in Memphis, drove down and bought them right before he closed his doors for good. I have to ask, have you sold all your 9s and 10Ts? I assume you are still using the 7Ts for your front channels, and possibly your back and center? The only unanswered question is when will the 20Ts be on order, oh my!

Steven, you should take a few moments to fill your profile out and absolutely post some pics of your system on the forum, we all love to look at the good stuff!

 

I am using the 3 7ts for my front channels. I had 2 7ts for rear surround channels. I have a lot of gear that's been sold as I'm making a lot of changes. My theater has been empty under reconstruction since August 1st and hopefully within another 2 months we'll be done. For full info go to https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-u...al-triad-theatre-2019-renovation-upgrade.html I will be using 6 Aerial 7 LCRs on the side walls for front wide surround, surround side, and surround rears. All speakers including the 13 Triad inceiling will be pointed at the MLP (middle listening position). Once its all done its gonna be a real trip!

As for the 20ts, I will never get them. If I have any money left, though, once the 30ts are out, I will get them to replace the front left and right 7ts. I have always found Michael's Aerial speakers to be built immaculately and to sound absolutely wonderful. Michael is a total class act and a true gentleman and trustworthy.

I have sold tons of gear and speakers over the years once something is no longer being used or replaced. I don't use Audiogon anymore - I use U.S. Audiomart and also sometimes AVS Forum Classifieds. All of my Aerials not being used were sold back in the years when I replaced them.

 

Litejazz, when you started this thread, you cited the closed after 2 weeks AVS Forum thread in question:

Would you buy a 10K Chinese Made Speaker labelled Made in USA ?? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

At post #60 in that thread is where Craig/Theatermax

"On the speakers he sells direct , he does this all the time and has done it many many times. He sold 5 7T's to a very well know forum member friend of mine totally behind my back.. Numerous customers were calling me telling me he was willing to sell them direct and could i beat the price. Mike I have no reason to make this up. The purpose of this thread was simply to explain his made in usa deception and this is now turning into something else."

Can you imagine how outraged I was (and still am) that Craig/Theatermax would include me as a part of his apparent vengeance against Aerial Acoustics and Michael Kelly?

Michael has always disclosed that the 7ts cabinets are manufactured in China - look at this 2011 article stating this as the speaker was just about to be introduced for sale: https://www.stereophile.com/content/...rial-acoustics Gee, if VGI/Craig was concerned about this, he had years to discuss and tell me about this yet never did. Craig/Theatermax complained starting 2015 on this forum ONLY after he was no longer an Aerial dealer.

Did Aerial make a mistake by any statements indicating or suggesting "Made in America"? Absolutely. And when finally brought to their attention this was corrected. Didn't Theatermax know all this when he was an Aerial dealer and self-professed accounting for 1/3 of Aerial's sales? Why didn't he contact Michael Kelly and Aerial and tell them he was concerned about this and that it should be corrected? (Once the internet threads were brought to Michael Kelly's attention, as a gentlemen he responded and quickly corrected this.) Why did Craig/Theatermax wait until he lost his Aerial dealership to start complaining publicly on the internet? And if as Craig/Theatermax alleges Aerial dealers were so concerned about Aerial selling direct and undercutting them whey are apparently all of the dealers still on board as Aerial dealers except for Craig/Theatermax? Why would Aerial dealers, with geographic area, even talk to or complain about Aerial to Craig/Theatermax as largely an internet dealer? Which Aerial dealer complained to Craig/Theatermax (do you really think any Aerial dealers did)?

Did this cause anyone to buy their speakers that would not have otherwise - no proof of this anywhere? And if anyone felt this way, then did Theatermax notify his customers and refund their money? Theatermax sells KEF - some models have parts and/or cabinets made in China such as LF50. Theatermax sells Revel and I have read on Audiogon that Revel's cheaper lines are made in China. I saw a thread on AVS Forum noting that some cheaper Paradigm speakers (not the whole line) were then made in China, and Theatermax sells Paradigm. And by the way to the extent speaker cabinets or other parts are or may have been in the past made in China, don't you think these premier audio companies maintained excellent supervision and quality control to ensure an excellent product?

If some folks DO NOT want to buy a speaker with parts or cabinets manufactured in China that is their perogative. Wouldn't it be nice if each and every part of each and every audio component and speaker were labeled as to country of manufacture? (Gee, we could read a small book on each audio and/or video product that we purchase?). Bottom line is speaker cabinets and parts are manufactured all over the world. If you want to stick to audio components and speaker cabinets manufactured solely in the U.S., your choices are very limited. If you like Bose there's one for you! What counts for me is price, quality, quality control, customer service, sonics, warranty and warranty service, and frankly also nice is the personality/contact of the manufacturer.

I have owned Theta Digital products for years (still own Theta Prometheus monoblocks) and know Morris Kessler, owner since 2008, quite well. Great guy. I replaced my Theta Casablanca IVA SSP (Casablanca owner since 1997) with a Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP earlier this year and I have really got to know Trinnov USA's Sales Manager Jon Herron who has been fantastic, as has been their customer service (also have Trinnov multi-channel amplifiers, which are actually manufactured to Trinnov specs by ATI, the owner of Theta Digital). I've been a Lumagen owner for years and years, currently Lumagen Radiance Pro, and Jim Peterson of Lumagen has been fantastic is assisting me on occasion including a few warranty issues over the years. Back 1997-2007 I owned five Bryston monoblocks, and I owned a Bryston BDP-1 for awhile, and James Tanner and Bryston were fantastic, and best warranty in the industry! And of course I have known Paul McGowan, PS Audio, for about 20 years now and have owned a number of PS Audio products, again with top notch service in all respects. And I put Michael Kelly, Aerial Acoustics, in that same class, both in willingness to chat with customers and potential customers and answer questions and in their warranty service. It is well known that Michael will get on the phone and personally assist Aerial owners in troubleshooting issues and sending replacement drivers quickly, as he has done with me (yea, having the SSP volume control very high, turning off and back on with the volume control up there, can certainly cause havoc with tweeters!).

Funny. I once had an audio friend who said he'll only buy USA made audio video components. Yet he bought a Samsung 4k TV for his wife. Go figure!

 

Can anyone tell me why Craig/Theatermax still has Aerial listed as one of his products as a dealer on his website more than 4 years after he is no longer an Aerial dealer?

Can anyone tell me why Craig/Theatermax still has an ad on Audiogon advertising to buy used Aerial speakers and sell them, when he is not an Aerial dealer, and in the ad he states:

"Please contact us anytime to trade in your Aerial Acoustic Speakers. We will take any of your Aerial Speakers on trade and offer more than fair prices. We have many Clients in and out of the USA looking for Aerials that are not worried about the Chinese Made Cabinets. The Asian Clients asking for them don't mind the Asian Made cabinets and for them it does not have such an impact on the brand and value. Please contact us for the best trade in prices towards any of there brands we carry or just a cash buy out price. We have many clients looking to buy them. Contact me anytime 732-616-1010 Craig. We are Dealers for many fine audio brands and have been in the business for 30 years.
Call me with any questions ! Feel free to call me anytime 11AM -10PM eastern time to discuss these items or any of the great items we represent.
Craig"

Aerial Acoustics All Models - We take all models on trade and we buy them all ! | Full-Range | Eatontown, New Jersey 07724 | Audiogon

Or do you think this ad is simply a mechanism for Craig/Theatermax to continue to get back at Aerial Acoustics and Michael Kelly as he uses this ad to mention his Chines made cabinets rant? But he doesn't seem concerned about Chinese made cabinets or parts for some of the other speakers or audio gear that he sells, does he?

 

Very good information indeed. You paint a very clear picture of what went on at Theatermax and why, the events make perfect sense to me, I appreciate your sharing. Your theater room is far beyond the normal hi-fi enthusiast, your up there to a power of 10, oh my! When all is done, your theater experience will be much like what Geroge Lucas enjoys. I just have to ask, in all your speaker trials, have you ever tried Wilson, they seem like a perfect fit for you.

 

You make a very valid point about the "in your face" disclosure on the Aerials, and I would be surprised if any disclosure so BOLD were made on any of the other loudspeaker brands his company carries, where cabinets or components are made in China. I trust you have found the new 7Ts construction to be flawless and solid!

 

Thanks. I've heard Wilson many times. My first Theta Digital dealer, Esoteric Audio in Scottsdale, was a Wilson dealer. They are out of business now. Though they were bought and a wonderful brand new store was opened in downtown Phoenix in 2015, and for the year or so they were in business, they were an Aerial dealer (by then Esoteric Audio, which closed its prior store and for a few years was ran out of the prior owners home, had lost Wilson to LMC in Scottsdale). If I had waited another year or so to buy my 7ts, then for that upcoming year Esoteric Audio would have been an Aerial dealer, and I would have had to buy my 7ts from Esoteric as an Aerial dealer. And if Esoteric was still is business, I would have to buy my Aerial 7LCRs from Esoteric as well. Anyway, I've never been in love with Wilson like I have with Aerial. But to be fair, we all have our own subjective preferences. Wilson are great speakers. And come to think of it, the cabinets are made here in America, though I don't know if some of the parts might be from somewhere else.

If you are ever in the Phoenix area, contact me and come over for a demo!

 

Gracious invitation, thanks so much, in the meantime, how about a nice YouTube video when you room and system are all complete, everyone would love to see it!

 

Or any domestic speakers for that matter...

...then again, I'll happily champion the many excellent Chinese made products that are readily available. Even if, or quite possibly moreso, as a not so thinly veiled barb to the thinly veiled, some might say, racism, hidden behind the digs at such products.

 

Yes - absolutely! Michael told me although the 7t cabinets are made in China, the special machines to make the cabinets are made elsewhere in Europe. He had used a Danish company to manufacture cabinets but they went out of business or no longer could manufacture Aerial cabinets, so he had to look elsewhere. Michael looked long and hard (he is a perfectionist, quite OCD, as am I and my current home theater renovator/installer Gerry Behm, Technology@Home), and with his quality control he felt that the China manufacture of the cabinets (assembly in US) is second to none! I agree. As the Aerial 7LCR came out in 2015, and the 7t in 2012, both prior to Craig/Theatermax losing his Aerial dealership and these web threads, it would cost too much financially for Michael to move speaker cabinet production on these models to the U.S. Nonetheless, I have bought 6 Aerial 7CLRs, sitting waiting for install, which are simply beautiful and so well made! However, Michael has been hard at work on his new upcoming 30T so that the cabinets are made here in the USA simply to avoid the controversy and in view of the potential impact of not only China but other foreign tariffs. And its not been easy for Michael to find the cabinetmaker to his specifications and quality control that he insists upon here in the USA. It would be different if Aerial Acoustics had the financial resources like Wilson to make their own speaker cabinets in their own U.S. factory - but only some speaker companies make all of their own speaker cabinets in their own factories.

 

Everyone - except one person that I can think of. HA! Thanks. I will. But my theater renovation/upgrade completion is perhaps several months off still. Once the physical part is all done, then Kris Deering must fly in to recalibrate the projector and Adam Pelz must fly in to take 2 days to setup and calibrate the audio. With a 9.9.13 system, its just gonna be too much for me. I do not want to have my other hip go out and require a second hip replacement.