Wow and flutter, etc. Tape Speed Issues - Tone Poet / Blue Note 80th anniversary vinyl LP problems.

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by StevenTounsand, Aug 30, 2019.

  1. brimuchmuze

    brimuchmuze Forum Resident

  2. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Yes. What version is this?

    This album seems to be problematic. I have a Japanese LP which is far better on this section (finale of "Matrix") but it has its own issues on Side 2.

    I need to grab an OG of this album.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  3. brimuchmuze

    brimuchmuze Forum Resident

    That's the 2002 CD master.

    It was actually a remix from the 4 track recording.

    Still, this section doesn't sound great to me.
     
  4. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    patient_ot likes this.
  5. 99khan

    99khan Forum Resident

    Pulled out my Sam Rivers Contours Connoisseur Series CD from 2004 (7243 4 73163 2 6 / 73163). The warble is definitely there on Euterpe. However, I played my BST-84206 Division of United Artists Records, Inc. Stereo LP and I must say, it's there but ever so slightly. As a matter of fact, I am more leaning to state that it plays straight. My copy though pristine is not that quiet in the beginning of Side 2 so it's hard to tell. BUT, it's night and day compared to the 2004 CD, the Tone Poet release and what is on Spotify.

    I wish I could do a needle drop of the UA label pressing so you'll hear what I am talking about. But take my word for it...it's a huge difference!
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
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  6. Robert C

    Robert C Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    Incredible that these transfers weren't run through Capstan prior to release. Celemony | Capstan
     
  7. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I think there was a commitment to keep them AAA as a selling point (where the LP was originally recorded on analog tape), and with damage to the tapes on certain stock (per KG's comments), this wasn't possible. I mentioned before that I wouldn't have cared if the LPs were partially or fully digital where tape damage was particularly bad and causing high levels of pitch variation. There are various ways to do this, e.g. the way the MM Song For My Father was digitally corrected in a small section, the Plangent process, etc.
     
  8. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Looks like I'm skipping this one then. Hopefully Hustlin' is okay.
     
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  9. p.analogowy

    p.analogowy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Warsaw PL
    I'm keeping mine, I can live with this amount of it. I think I'll just accept them for what they are for now - in the end I'll just probably end up getting other pressings of these albums as well, I don't mind having a few to compare. In exactly this spirit I just received a King pressing of Takin' Off and I have to admit it sounds fantastic, fuller, meatier and more present than the BN80, in addition to having no pitch issues.
     
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  10. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I decided I have to choose these albums carefully. Many of them I already own on some format so I'd rather just get the ones that have minimal problems. As I've said, the last batch really frustrated me (Kenny/Black Fire). I skipped Takin' Off because I have a nice CD copy and don't want a record with pitch issues.

    I don't have an unlimited record buying budget, especially for new $35 records, so I'm taking everything on a case by case basis now and not jumping the gun with immediate orders or preorders. Plus for every screwed up Tone Poet or BN80 I spend money on that's one less jazz reissue from another label (e.g. Pure Pleasure, AP, Impex, etc.) that gets pushed on the back burner. Typically releases from those other labels don't have major issues like some of the Tone Poets have either.
     
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  11. Kimiimacman

    Kimiimacman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lost
    Hustlin’ is flawless (pianoless too of course) sounds wonderful throughout.

    I’m on the fence regarding Minor Move though; not a particularly strong session, at least on a Tidal stream but I’ve made that mistake before: loving what the TP has brought from ,for example, Old Bottle. I just pray that Sonny’s opening piano is as solid on the TP as the stream.
     
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  12. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    So long as Minor Move is okay, I will probably buy it. I'm a huge Tina Brooks fan. I do have the Mosiac boxset from the 80s and some CDs but I'm curious what the TP treatment can do with it.
     
    p.analogowy and Kimiimacman like this.
  13. brimuchmuze

    brimuchmuze Forum Resident

    Hmm, i think the Contours wobble is not minor, and it really stands out. Is there an example on Black Fire where there is a big glitch like that?
     
  14. periclimenes

    periclimenes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Miami, FL
    McNeill Island is the track that most people found to be the most obtrusive. Here's my copy: McNeil Island Tone Poet Copy 1 - Clyp
     
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  15. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
  16. 99khan

    99khan Forum Resident

    The wobble sound in Contours is very evident. All, if not majority, should be able to hear it on certain editions, including the TP release and CD versions. However, although the BF flutter is that obvious and intrusive to some, others (such as myself) are not that sensitive to it and/or bothered by it.

    All in all, both are keepers for me. The albums sound great!:righton:
     
  17. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    As all of the posts regarding the discovery of a severe pitch fluctuation issue with the Tone Poet reissue of Andrew Hill's Black Fire, I want to make sure it makes it into these pages for the record.

    Music Matters and Tone Poet have put out some extraordinary reissues. We are thankful to Joe Harley and Don Was for the Tone Poet series, and add Ron for the existence of Music Matters.

    But when a misstep occurs, it's fair that it's brought to light as well.

    BF has odd fluctuations, particularly audible on side 2. Interestingly, with needle drops and a visual analysis deleted among 50 pages of posts in the Tone Poet thread due to some not liking anything negative being posted about the Tone Poet releases, the direct evidence is gone.

    It's intriguing that not all could hear the fluctuation in the needle drops, but a later graphic of the wave forms show the fluctuation exists. Not everyone may be sensitive to that sort of aberration.

    Subsequently, other less egregious examples have been found of this issue. And the mastering engineer, Kevin Gray, was quoted by @Gabe Walters that these problems do exist with the tapes, some worse than others.

    It won't stop me from necessarily buying future releases. For the most part, the increased fidelity and dynamics with these reissues supersedes the problem, but the problem with Black Fire is fairly bad, if you're one who can hear it (Although a few mind it less than others.).
     
    Dan Steele, nosliw, Vic Trola and 6 others like this.
  18. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Music Matters and Tone Poet have put out some extraordinary reissues. We are thankful to Joe Harley and Don Was for the Tone Poet series, and add Ron for the existence of Music Matters.

    But when a misstep occurs, it's fair that it's brought to light as well.

    BF has odd fluctuations, particularly audible on side 2. Interestingly, with needle drops and a visual analysis deleted among 50 pages of posts in the Tone Poet thread due to some not liking anything negative being posted about the Tone Poet releases, the direct evidence is gone.

    It's intriguing that not all could hear the fluctuation in the needle drops, but a later graphic of the wave forms show the fluctuation exists. Not everyone may be sensitive to that sort of aberration.

    Subsequently, other less egregious examples have been found of this issue. And the mastering engineer, Kevin Gray, was quoted by @Gabe Walters that these problems do exist with the tapes, some worse than others.

    It won't stop me from necessarily buying future releases. For the most part, the increased fidelity and dynamics with these reissues supersedes the problem, but the problem with Black Fire is fairly bad, if you're one who can hear it (Although a few mind it less than others.).
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  19. You will be really missing out if you don't buy beause if sound signatures that most folks don't even hear. Buy and then return if you have issues., I have all but three of the TPs. Not one issue.
     
    this_machine and Dan Steele like this.
  20. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    You don't hear it, but it's definitely there on the Black Fire. Whether it'll bother someone enough to return it is another story.

    But you'll NEED to buy it from a retailer who will give you your money back if you're not happy.
     
    nosliw, Vic Trola and Tim1954 like this.
  21. Yup and Amazon will do that if you are in the USA.

    Understand folks hear problems but I feel everyone needs to listen for themselves since the issues are not heard by everyone. That’s all.

    Would be a shame for someone to miss out on what may be the final analogue issues if they might be one who loves the sound of the record. .
     
    Vic Trola and AnalogJ like this.
  22. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I'm one of the people that hears the pitch issues (what I call "sour notes") on Black Fire. Quite honestly, the fact that several titles in the series have pitch issues to one degree or another bothers me which is why I will be slowing down on these (no immediate purchases) and skipping certain titles entirely.

    I played my copy of the TP Cornbread today and heard some pitch issues on Ceora. I don't think I can return the record at this point either if I decide I want my money back. Most of my listening to this LP has been as background and not active/critical listening so there may be other issues with it that I haven't picked up on. I will say the pitch issues on that track that I heard were not anywhere near as bad as the Black Fire issues.
     
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  23. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Pretty much only big box retailers will do that these days. I bought some of the TPs from a local shop at first but they had trouble getting them after awhile and then I started to run into pressing defects on some titles I purchased, so no more local TPs for me.

    IMHO it sucks we have to deal with all these issues on a reissue series that I previously extremely enthusiastic about. It is what it is with tape damage being an issue and pressing quality going to the toilet with the current vinyl trend.
     
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  24. struttincool

    struttincool Senior Member

    Location:
    Anacortes, WA
    The Tone Poet series seems to be pushing ahead with problematic tapes. And they feel bad for the folks that can't get past that.
     
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  25. Unbelievable :tiphat:
     
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